Reality what a concept!

Originally posted by vistesd

And the Zen question is: What do you use to examine the “self” on its own terms?

Note: I am inferring from your post that you are using the word “self” to refer to the thought/concept complex that defines the “I-construct.” As you say, absent some aberration (such as multiple personality disorder), it tends to be cohesive. The language becomes diffi ...[text shortened]... that way (though I tend to), but use it as a verbal “tag” for something prior to that construct.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean by the term self. I suppose I would refer to it as the "Hofstadterian" sense.

Are you saying that the Zen question you posed refers not to the self in this sense, but rather to the union of, say, the I-construct and its supporting unconscious? If so, then I would think all the points you made about the difficulties in studying reality can be applied in an equally valid way to this question, on a different level.

If we define the self more narrowly (as the I-construct), I'm not sure if that makes self-examination more or less difficult, or even precisely what it means. In my earlier post I was not really thinking about self-examination, but rather about the usefulness, from a theoretical perspective, of defining the self in this way.

our experience of reality is essentially the effects of evolution on an otherwise pointless brain, all our sences are evolved to help us survive this crasy world, and to survive we have to preseve our soroundings very effectivly in order to stay alive. us being humans have automated every thing so we have loads of time and tools to think and see further, but it is all essentially our basic ininstinct to be curious that gives the urge to explain what perception is, or what exactly awareness is..well....its just our 3D view of the world and its food (animals/plants) that our early brain needed to remember, that is we needed to remember what could eat us and what could be eatin or what could poison us and what we could use to poison or even heal one another..essentially we are perception/awarness/life orientated to keep us alive.......and im sure the slime mould has its own little urge to survive but thats just not somthing we can expect to understand because of humans top off the food chain ways of thinking. im sure my cat looks at me and thinks " mummy" or " god" and my cat knows how to survive cause she fhas a brain too....brains are perception regardless to what u are (except slime moulds....weirdos)

Originally posted by castlerook
Yes, that's exactly what I mean by the term self. I suppose I would refer to it as the "Hofstadterian" sense.

Are you saying that the Zen question you posed refers not to the self in this sense, but rather to the union of, say, the I-construct and its supporting unconscious? If so, then I would think all the points you made about the difficulties in ...[text shortened]... ther about the usefulness, from a theoretical perspective, of defining the self in this way.

Are you saying that the Zen question you posed refers not to the self in this sense, but rather to the union of, say, the I-construct and its supporting unconscious?

No, sorry. I intended the question to stand in the face of the “self” as you and I are using the term here. As all such Zen questions it is more existential than theoretical in nature—that is, it intends to point beyond theory, which is still in the realm of thinking-mind. I leave the question open, as a kind of koan.

In the second paragraph, I was just pointing out that, if you read some of the eastern literature, you might find the term “self” being used differently.

Originally posted by psychoalpha
our experience of reality is essentially the effects of evolution on an otherwise pointless brain, all our sences are evolved to help us survive this crasy world, and to survive we have to preseve our soroundings very effectivly in order to stay alive. us being humans have automated every thing so we have loads of time and tools to think and see further ...[text shortened]... brain too....brains are perception regardless to what u are (except slime moulds....weirdos)

Are you not assuming quite a bit with the how we came to be, and
from that point on your assumptions are all colored to look at all
things in a certain light?
Kelly

Originally posted by vistesd
[b]Are you saying that the Zen question you posed refers not to the self in this sense, but rather to the union of, say, the I-construct and its supporting unconscious?

No, sorry. I intended the question to stand in the face of the “self” as you and I are using the term here. As all such Zen questions it is more existential than theoretical in natur ...[text shortened]... you read some of the eastern literature, you might find the term “self” being used differently.[/b]

Got it, thank you.