22 Oct 09
It has been asked in this forum how God can allow children to suffer and die. Of course, when asked, the inference is that God is somehow to blame. Some say that if there is a God, then He must be cruel because He seems not to be doing anything about all the pain innocent children suffer.
As you all must be aware, a 6 year old girl was abducted and found buried in a dump this week. When I heard the mothers pleading on the radio for her daughter it wrenched my heart out.
Then I realized that it must be much more painful for God than I can imagine.
When an individual who does not believe in the existence of God makes the accusation that God is cruel because He doesn't intervene, then just remember, if there is a God, He will have vengeance.
Anybody have anything to say?
22 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwGod is cruel AND vengeful.
It has been asked in this forum how God can allow children to suffer and die. Of course, when asked, the inference is that God is somehow to blame. Some say that if there is a God, then He must be cruel because He seems not to be doing anything about all the pain innocent children suffer.
As you all must be aware, a 6 year old girl was abducted and found ...[text shortened]... then just remember, if there is a God, He will have vengeance.
Anybody have anything to say?
23 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwFirstly, not sure why we must all be aware of the incident - this is of course a global forum, and your news may well not be ours.
It has been asked in this forum how God can allow children to suffer and die. Of course, when asked, the inference is that God is somehow to blame. Some say that if there is a God, then He must be cruel because He seems not to be doing anything about all the pain innocent children suffer.
As you all must be aware, a 6 year old girl was abducted and found ...[text shortened]... then just remember, if there is a God, He will have vengeance.
Anybody have anything to say?
But to the important point.
Let's assume god exists. Let's also assume that, given the nature of such a creature as a supernatural creator, it is omnipotent/omniscient. This seems like a reasonable assumption given the amount of time you religious people spend praying and so forth - you expect god to listen, right?
Okay, so this little girl is about to be abducted. God knows this, since it's omnipotent/omniscient.
The little girl is abducted. God sees this, since it's omnipotent/omniscient.
The little girl is raped I assume and then murdered. God knows this ...
So, at every stage our omnieverything god knows about these events taking place. Yet it makes no move to stop the process. It does not intervene.
Apparently, however, we are to believe that at the most trivial incident occuring in some bumf*%k backward desert settlement in the middle east 3000 years ago, this moni god was more than happy to intervene at the slightest notice.
Does the girl deserve any more than this?
Does the girl deserve some sort of intervention because of this 'loving' god?
Hardly, I think at the very least, this sort of event - which of course occurs regularly - is a nail in the coffin for any sort of personal, interventionist god.
Actually, I'm not sure what sort of god is left.
For me of course, there is no god. We can't beg or plead for salvation. We can't be saved by something else.
We have to do it ourselves. We have to make the world better - bit by bit.
23 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwThe problem of evil is a big one that has troubled theists throughout the ages. I have come across a number of attempts to deal with it, but am yet to see a good solution. Let me summarize the ones I can think of:
Anybody have anything to say?
1. Adam and Eve. Try to shift the blame to Adam, Eve and Satan.
2. Free will is impossible without evil. Of course this overlooks the fact that the vast majority of suffering has little or nothing to do with free will - unless we blame it all on Adam of course.
3. Simply ignore the problem and try to shift the focus by highlighting Gods love/goodness. This is what you are trying to do here josephw. By telling us that God feels sorry too, you expect us to all feel sorry for God or at least sympathize with him and thus forget about the problem of evil.
Your choice of victim was such that the main culprit was human. I don't know if that was deliberate, but we do tend to focus a lot on what we might call avoidable suffering when in reality the vast majority of suffering is unavoidable. I actually don't think you would have written the post if the victim had died of swine flu.
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23 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwIt's not just children; it's anyone and everyone. If God is the almighty, the creator, the Alpha and Omega, the Judicator upon death, the all-knowing, then God is responsible. The buck stops there. I didn't put him in charge but according to you he's in charge. It's his responsibility and his fault, because if not then what is at fault? Nothing? No one?
It has been asked in this forum how God can allow children to suffer and die. Of course, when asked, the inference is that God is somehow to blame. Some say that if there is a God, then He must be cruel because He seems not to be doing anything about all the pain innocent children suffer.
As you all must be aware, a 6 year old girl was abducted and found ...[text shortened]... then just remember, if there is a God, He will have vengeance.
Anybody have anything to say?
I thought God was in charge....
23 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwi can see roughly where you are going, but your logic is slowing you down.
It has been asked in this forum how God can allow children to suffer and die. Of course, when asked, the inference is that God is somehow to blame. Some say that if there is a God, then He must be cruel because He seems not to be doing anything about all the pain innocent children suffer.
As you all must be aware, a 6 year old girl was abducted and found ...[text shortened]... then just remember, if there is a God, He will have vengeance.
Anybody have anything to say?
23 Oct 09
Originally posted by BadwaterMaybe that 'soul's' learning was complete and she was ready to enter into Nirvana. What seems cruel and tragic on one plane can be seen quite differently for those who see beyond death...
It's not just children; it's anyone and everyone. If God is the almighty, the creator, the Alpha and Omega, the Judicator upon death, the all-knowing, then God is responsible. The buck stops there. I didn't put him in charge but according to you he's in charge. It's his responsibility and his fault, because if not then what is at fault? Nothing? No one?
I thought God was in charge....
23 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwSo we should show sympathy for god's feelings when he lets innocent people die, despite having the ability to save them and indeed put an end to all suffering everywhere?
It has been asked in this forum how God can allow children to suffer and die. Of course, when asked, the inference is that God is somehow to blame. Some say that if there is a God, then He must be cruel because He seems not to be doing anything about all the pain innocent children suffer.
As you all must be aware, a 6 year old girl was abducted and found ...[text shortened]... then just remember, if there is a God, He will have vengeance.
Anybody have anything to say?
Would you sympathise with a person who had the ability to stop a bus full of children running off a cliff, simply by applying the handbrake, but instead and for no good reason, jumps out and leaves them to die?
23 Oct 09
Originally posted by josephwI have something to say, you've been very morose lately. I recommend taking a vacation from these internet thugs. I say this because I care.
It has been asked in this forum how God can allow children to suffer and die. Of course, when asked, the inference is that God is somehow to blame. Some say that if there is a God, then He must be cruel because He seems not to be doing anything about all the pain innocent children suffer.
As you all must be aware, a 6 year old girl was abducted and found ...[text shortened]... then just remember, if there is a God, He will have vengeance.
Anybody have anything to say?
23 Oct 09
Originally posted by amannion"We have to make the world better - bit by bit."
Firstly, not sure why we must all be aware of the incident - this is of course a global forum, and your news may well not be ours.
But to the important point.
Let's assume god exists. Let's also assume that, given the nature of such a creature as a supernatural creator, it is omnipotent/omniscient. This seems like a reasonable assumption given the amou ...[text shortened]... hing else.
We have to do it ourselves. We have to make the world better - bit by bit.
They say that pedophiles can't be rehabilitated. Do you think we should execute those who torture and murder children?
23 Oct 09
Originally posted by Hand of HecateI have been morose lately. I'm evolving here I think. I'll grow though it and develop a better approach. Be more objective, and less emotional. I'm really not a forum type. I need to learn how to debate these things without alienating people.
I have something to say, you've been very morose lately. I recommend taking a vacation from these internet thugs. I say this because I care.
Do you think I'm on track?
23 Oct 09
Originally posted by Starrman"...for no good reason, jumps out and leaves them to die?"
So we should show sympathy for god's feelings when he lets innocent people die, despite having the ability to save them and indeed put an end to all suffering everywhere?
Would you sympathise with a person who had the ability to stop a bus full of children running off a cliff, simply by applying the handbrake, but instead and for no good reason, jumps out and leaves them to die?
Is it for us to question God? If there be a God?
I can't apply that line of reasoning. I won't blame God for evil.
I assume responsibility for my own actions.
24 Oct 09
Originally posted by karoly aczelI understand where you're coming from karoly, but it is evil to kidnap and murder children.
Maybe that 'soul's' learning was complete and she was ready to enter into Nirvana. What seems cruel and tragic on one plane can be seen quite differently for those who see beyond death...
There is no justification for it.