1. Donationrwingett
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    16 Jul '07 02:00
    Realized Eschatology is the theory that the eschatological passages in the bible do not refer to the future, but instead refer to the ministry of Jesus in the present world and its transformative effects. Eschatology does not refer to the end of the world, but rather to its rebirth as instituted by Jesus’ revolutionary program of social activism. For Jesus the coming of the ‘Kingdom of God’ was a historical event brought about by the actions of his followers in the here and now. But in the decades following his death, Pauline theology had completely altered that dynamic by changing it to one of transcendental apocalypticism. It went from being a program of an engaged self-actualization to one of passively waiting for an external agent to deliver the Kingdom to them. John Dominic Crossan, of the Jesus Seminar, uses the term ‘sapiential eschatology.’ He makes the distinction as follows:

    Apocalyptic eschatology is world-negation stressing imminent divine intervention: we wait for God to act; sapiential eschatology is world-negation emphasizing immediate divine imitation: God waits for us to act.

    Jesus preached a message of collective social, economic, and political deliverance from the oppression of both the Romans and of the Temple State that exploited the people and showed little concern for their daily troubles. It is clear that Jesus thought the people could bring this kingdom into being within their own lifetimes through the practice of social justice. After Jesus’ death, Paul upended this by thinking it would be Jesus himself who would usher in the Kingdom upon his return. So for Paul, since Jesus’ return was expected imminently, there was little point in reforming the present world. The believers needed only to be patient and wait for his return. A profound shift occurred within Christianity whereby the emphasis went from being one of concern for social justice to one of personal piety. Jesus’ concern for the poor and oppressed of the world was changed into Paul’s concern about personal sin. Christianity went from being about carrying on Jesus’ reformative social activism to being a cult about the personhood of Jesus himself. In other words, they worshipped the man, but ignored his message.

    This complete corruption of Jesus’ message was brought full circle when Constantine adopted Christianity himself and it was later made the official religion of the Roman State. Christianity had gone from being the radical faith of the oppressed to the official religion of the oppressor. Christianity began serving the needs of the state and institutionalizing its own power while completely dropping all of the political activism preached by Jesus himself. Throughout history there have been people who have seen through this corruption of Jesus’ message and who have tried to get back to the original Christianity, but far too many people continue to put their faith in the badly skewed Pauline theology as brought to its ultimate depths by the Great Constantinian Shift. It is on rare occasions like this when I ask myself: WWJD?
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    16 Jul '07 02:36
    "Jesus preached a message of collective social, economic, and political deliverance from the oppression of both the Romans and of the Temple State that exploited the people and showed little concern for their daily troubles".

    Can you prove that what you have said here is true?
    Why wouldn't Jesus have lead a military campaign as well? He certainly would have taken over the world by now! Don't you think?
  3. Donationrwingett
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    16 Jul '07 03:14
    Originally posted by josephw
    "Jesus preached a message of collective social, economic, and political deliverance from the oppression of both the Romans and of the Temple State that exploited the people and showed little concern for their daily troubles".

    Can you prove that what you have said here is true?
    Why wouldn't Jesus have lead a military campaign as well? He certainly would have taken over the world by now! Don't you think?
    The ends cannot be divorced from the means. A just society cannot be realized through unjust means.

    I learned that from Emma Goldman, but I'm sure Jesus would concur.
  4. Standard memberKellyJay
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    16 Jul '07 05:53
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The ends cannot be divorced from the means. A just society cannot be realized through unjust means.

    I learned that from Emma Goldman, but I'm sure Jesus would concur.
    Fair enough, a just society cannot be realized through unjust means,
    and as you understand judgment and the end do you see God some
    how acting unjust in any means as scripture suggest it is going to
    happen?
    Kelly
  5. Donationrwingett
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    16 Jul '07 13:32
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Fair enough, a just society cannot be realized through unjust means,
    and as you understand judgment and the end do you see God some
    how acting unjust in any means as scripture suggest it is going to
    happen?
    Kelly
    I don't think scripture is correct in that regard. I don't think there is going to be an end to the world. The 'end' was the end of the present age of greed and oppression by the initiation of Jesus' program.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    16 Jul '07 14:05
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Realized Eschatology is the theory that the eschatological passages in the bible do not refer to the future, but instead refer to the ministry of Jesus in the present world and its transformative effects. Eschatology does not refer to the end of the world, but rather to its rebirth as instituted by Jesus’ revolutionary program of social activism. For Jesus ...[text shortened]... ths by the Great Constantinian Shift. It is on rare occasions like this when I ask myself: WWJD?
    Ringwett, you are a paradox of a human being. One minute advocating the death of the wealthy and next, peaching 'love thy neighbour'.

    I keep saying, many Christians dont have a clue what Christ message was about and you are correct for the most part. But the concept of social justice is alien to most people and they cannot reasonably be expected to change their thinking in this lifetime or at all for that matter. While there can be some Biblical support for your version of future events, I suspect that only a divine intervetion will bring about your dream world.
  7. Standard memberRajk999
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    16 Jul '07 14:10
    Originally posted by josephw
    "Why wouldn't Jesus have lead a military campaign as well? He certainly would have taken over the world by now! Don't you think?
    Jesus preached non-violence. Jesus does not want to take over the world. The world has to come to Him.
  8. Donationrwingett
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    16 Jul '07 15:18
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Ringwett, you are a paradox of a human being. One minute advocating the death of the wealthy and next, peaching 'love thy neighbour'.

    I keep saying, many Christians dont have a clue what Christ message was about and you are correct for the most part. But the concept of social justice is alien to most people and they cannot reasonably be expected to change ...[text shortened]... of future events, I suspect that only a divine intervetion will bring about your dream world.
    The depth of your pessimism is appalling. I think humanity is capable of a great deal more than you give them credit for.
  9. Donationrwingett
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    16 Jul '07 21:42
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Ringwett, you are a paradox of a human being. One minute advocating the death of the wealthy and next, peaching 'love thy neighbour'.

    I keep saying, many Christians dont have a clue what Christ message was about and you are correct for the most part. But the concept of social justice is alien to most people and they cannot reasonably be expected to change ...[text shortened]... of future events, I suspect that only a divine intervetion will bring about your dream world.
    The problem with you (among others) is that you really do think this is the best of all possible worlds. All attempts to build a more just world will inevitably end in failure, so it's a waste of time to even try. People are inherently flawed and will eventually screw up everything they touch. It's this fatalistic pessimism that I find appalling.

    There is a saying that "the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know." If we try to make a better system, it could turn out worse. So we better just do nothing and keep our miseries to a known quantity. Of course things could turn out much better, but your fear of the unknown, coupled with your fatalistic pessimism ensure that things will pretty much stay the same.
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    17 Jul '07 16:16
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The problem with you (among others) is that you really do think this is the best of all possible worlds. All attempts to build a more just world will inevitably end in failure, so it's a waste of time to even try. People are inherently flawed and will eventually screw up everything they touch. It's this fatalistic pessimism that I find appalling.

    There ...[text shortened]... , coupled with your fatalistic pessimism ensure that things will pretty much stay the same.
    A smart guy like you must know that what you call pessimism is more likely to be experience.
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