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Originally posted by vivify
I'm not all-powerful, omnipresent and omniscient, as the bible claims God is. If was, and still allowed my child to eat something that would result in terrible suffering all the rest of his days, who's at fault?

I'm not all-powerful, omnipresent and omniscient, as the bible claims God is. If was, and still allowed my child to eat something that would result in terrible suffering all the rest of his days, who's at fault?

Would you say then that NOTHING is a man's fault?
That would have catastrophic consequences for civilization as an overall philosophy.

All is to be blamed on an "all-powerful, omnipresent and omniscient" God. Doesn't that give me great leeway to rip you off in any manner I choose and not feel responsible ?

Originally posted by sonship

I'm not all-powerful, omnipresent and omniscient, as the bible claims God is. If was, and still allowed my child to eat something that would result in terrible suffering all the rest of his days, who's at fault?

Would you say then that NOTHING is a man's fault?
That would have catastrophic consequences for civilization as an overall p ...[text shortened]... esn't that give me great leeway to rip you off in any manner I choose and not feel responsible ?

I'm talking about one singular event: the Garden of Eden.

Why are all of you dodging such a simple question? Let me ask one last time:

I'm not all-powerful, omnipresent and omniscient, as the bible claims God is. If was, and still allowed my child to eat something that would result in terrible suffering all the rest of his days, who's at fault?

Originally posted by vivify

I'm not all-powerful, omnipresent and omniscient, as the bible claims God is. If was, and still allowed my child to eat something that would result in terrible suffering all the rest of his days, who's at fault?

Some people would argue that the entire fall of man into sin is God's fault.
I do not see it that way.

Does that answer your question?

Let's say I am wrong. Let's say that we can squarely place all the blame for the fall of man on the Creator God. After the questionable smugness of self congradulations that we have placed all fault on God, this glee for me would wear out.

And THEN I would give attention to the foreknowledge God had to already have a plan of salvation in mind that I could be rescued from the infestation of sin and death.

I think after any initial self congratulations for siting God as guilty somehow, I would change my priorities to examine why Christ died and rose that I might be saved, justified, reconciled to God and brought back to His eternal purpose before chapter three's events took place.

IE. The dubious joy of scapegoating would not occupy me forever. I must turn to God's salvation plan, regardless.

Originally posted by sonship

I'm not all-powerful, omnipresent and omniscient, as the bible claims God is. If was, and still allowed my child to eat something that would result in terrible suffering all the rest of his days, who's at fault?

Some people would argue that the entire fall of man into sin is God's fault.
I do not see it that way.

Does that answer ...[text shortened]... oy of scapegoating would not occupy me forever. I must turn to God's salvation plan, regardless.

I agree, I don't believe God is at fault, but even if he was, so what? He is still God and I am a nobody.
BTW
I have heard some teaching and many believe, that god is not omniscient, but that he is so far ahead in his thinking that it wouldn't matter. I am not saying I agree, but it does have some merit.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I agree, I don't believe God is at fault, but even if he was, so what? He is still God and I am a nobody.
BTW
I have heard some teaching and many believe, that god is not omniscient, but that he is so far ahead in his thinking that it wouldn't matter. I am not saying I agree, but it does have some merit.

Would a non-omniscient God know that He doesn't know everything there is to know?🙂

Could an omnipotent God set up a universe in which things happened without His foreknowledge? I do it all the time.🙂

Originally posted by JS357
Would a non-omniscient God know that He doesn't know everything there is to know?🙂

Could an omnipotent God set up a universe in which things happened without His foreknowledge? I do it all the time.🙂

If omniscience means something like 'knows all true propositions' and omnipotent means something like 'can do anything that is logically possible', then a god that possesses both qualities can't set up a universe with events that happen without his foreknowledge, nor can he know that he does not know everything there is to know [because that proposition is false].

Originally posted by JS357
Would a non-omniscient God know that He doesn't know everything there is to know?🙂

Could an omnipotent God set up a universe in which things happened without His foreknowledge? I do it all the time.🙂

http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/does-god-know-every-future-event-in-human-history

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
If omniscience means something like 'knows all true propositions' and omnipotent means something like 'can do anything that is logically possible', then a god that possesses both qualities can't set up a universe with events that happen without his foreknowledge, nor can he know that he does not know everything there is to know [because that proposition is false].

See above

Originally posted by checkbaiter
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/does-god-know-every-future-event-in-human-history

I was only picking up on "I have heard some teaching and many believe, that god is not omniscient, but that he is so far ahead in his thinking that it wouldn't matter. I am not saying I agree, but it does have some merit."

What merit has it?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
See above

OK, so they don't believe god is omniscient, at least, not in accordance with the definition that I gave.

Seems reasonable to me, actually, that some Christians would NOT believe God is omniscient. It would spare them much grief in combating things like the Argument From Evil, and explain many of the passages in the Bible in which God appears not to know certain things.

Originally posted by vivify
I'm not all-powerful, omnipresent and omniscient, as the bible claims God is. If was, and still allowed my child to eat something that would result in terrible suffering all the rest of his days, who's at fault?

I don't recall the Holy Bible using the words "omnipresent and omniscient" to describe God. God can certainly be in more than one place at the same time if God is a trinity of three persons, but I don't recall the Holy Bible saying God can be every place at the same time. Certainly God must be capable of learning, don't you think?

Originally posted by vivify
If I, as a parent, knowingly let my child eat something that will cause him needless and harsh suffering, who's at fault?

You are!

But Adam was a grown man and KNEW what he was doing. Just as the rest of us do.

No excuses! You're projecting a human perspective on a scenario created by a being that can make no mistakes. The mistake was made by the man. The man has no excuses to make. The man has no defense against his maker that will stand up to reason. Leveling a charge of irresponsibility against a being incapable of error further exacerbates the man's predicament.

Originally posted by josephw
You are!

But Adam was a grown man and KNEW what he was doing. Just as the rest of us do.

Clearly, he didn't. The bible says they (Adam and Eve) didn't have wisdom. So much was their lack of wisdom and knowledge, they didn't even realize they were naked. It wasn't until after they ate the fruit that they knew this.

Adam and Eve were as close to children as you can get. They had little knowledge of anything, they never had to learn anything, had nothing equivalent to "street smarts", and never even knew what pain and suffering were. You can't use the "grown man" argument for a man who never actually grew up.

God is fully at fault.

Originally posted by josephw
You are!

But Adam was a grown man and KNEW what he was doing. Just as the rest of us do.

No excuses! You're projecting a human perspective on a scenario created by a being that can make no mistakes. The mistake was made by the man. The man has no excuses to make. The man has no defense against his maker that will stand up to reason. Leveling a charge ...[text shortened]... f irresponsibility against a being incapable of error further exacerbates the man's predicament.

Adam had no knowledge of good or evil - no moral compass. To blame him for an action that he took in that state seems foolish.

Originally posted by josephw

But Adam was a grown man and KNEW what he was doing. Just as the rest of us do.

He was not only a grown man. Adam was a pristinely intelligent man probably the likes of which has never existed since.

Directly from the creative hand of God, Adam was exceptional.
He just chose wrong, against God's warning.

But where Adam failed, the Son of God did not fail no matter what it cost Him.