Joe would you like to reconsider that this statement you wrote may not be true?

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Theology is not based on facts. A house of cards has more to stand on.
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If not and you stick to your concept then please find time to answer:

We have one fact we agree on - FACT #1 - You Do Exist.

Is it a FACT that it is possible that you could not exist?

Is it a FACT that everything that exists which has the possibility to not exist, exists because it was caused to exist by something else?

Is it FACT that you were caused to exist by something else?

I will accept "I need to think about my initial premise more. Perhaps it is not true" as a valid answer.

Or is this saying of yours much sturdier than a house of cards?

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Theology is not based on facts. A house of cards has more to stand on.
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Is it a FACT that everything that exists which has the possibility to not exist, exists because it was caused to exist by something else

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Let's cut to the chase.You are going to say that god is the 1st creator without which nothing else could exist. The usual theist when asked how god got here says god has always been here.........but if god could have always been here with out having a prior cause, the universe could also have been here without a prior cause.

For you to say everything needs a prior cause and then say god does not need a prior cause is not intellectually honest and weakens your argument right out of the box.

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Your objection is that Theology is not based on FACTS.

I don't want to "cut to the chase". I want to see if I can accumulate a number of FACTS upon which to base a theology.

One may not agree with the theology. That is fine. The question is not do you agree or not. The question is can one develop a theology based on FACTS. I have not yet developed a theology.

At this point I am simply gathering FACTS.

So do you agree that it is a FACT that everything that exists which has the possibility of not existing was caused to exist by something else?

IF you do not agree say so. "No, that is not a FACT." Is that your reply?

Joe,

If I am progressing too slowly for you, let's take up this statement of yours.

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but if god could have always been here with out having a prior cause, the universe could also have been here without a prior cause.

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Is it a FACT that the current concensus of the astrophysical scientific opinion is the the universe had a beginning in the Big Bang?

Mind you it may not be true. I only ask you whether it is a FACT that the current state of cosmology suggests a beginning to the universe?

Scientists say the present universe came from the big bang. Many scientists postulate that the big bang could have resulted from compressed energy and matter from a universe preexisting the big bang.

You still have not explained how god got here if everything requires a cause. Either everything requires a cause or it doesn't. Make up your mind

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You still have not explained how god got here if everything requires a cause.

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Do you have a similiar concern for what you "still" haven't answered?

When I get to the point where I want to propose a Theology I will answer your question about Theos. I am curremtly collecting some facts upon which to propose a Theology.

What I see you doing at the moment is being careful that you do not agree with me about any possible FACTS.

So far we agree that it is a FACT that you exist - Fact #1.

You have evaded my question about is it possible that you could not exist. I propose that it is a FACT that it is possible that you could not exist.

Is it a fact that whatever has the potential to not exist is currently caused to exist by another?

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Either everything requires a cause or it doesn't. Make up your mind

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Quote me whare I stated that everything that exists requires a causee to exist.

Quote me where I said that.

Now I will tell you what I WOULD say: Everything that exists which has the possibility to NOT exist has a cause for its existence.

I'm careful about reading your statments. PLease be careful about reading mine.

Originally posted by jaywill
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Either everything requires a cause or it doesn't. Make up your mind

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Quote me whare I stated that everything that exists requires a causee to exist.



Now I will tell you what I WOULD say: Everything that exists which has the possibility to NOT exist has a cause for its existence.

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Again, let's cut to the chase.
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If I really wanted to cut to the chase I would ask you why should I trust you over Jesus Christ? What is it in your character which has built up more credibility and more approvedness than Jesus?

That's what I'd ask you if I really wanted to cut to the chase. Jesus has built up with me a kind of trustworthiness and approvedness by the force of His character. He was not only sinless. He was sinless in a glorious way. You are not glorious. Why should I trust your words over those of Jesus?

That's cutting to the chase for me.

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\ Are you saying god always existed, or god was caused by something?
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Before that I am saying when you put words into people's mouths and cannot quote them you should acknowledge that you made a mistake.

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It has to be one or the other. If god was caused by something, he (or she) obviously is not the 1st cause, and if you say god was always here, I can say with equal force of logic, that the universe has always been here.
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You can say a lot of things with force.

Do you believe in an eternal material universe? I am not interestedd in what you can say and how forcfully. Are you committing to an uncreated and eternal materrial universe?

The Steady State Theory has gone out of use for most of the scientific community. Are you holding out for it.

I don't believe that an infinite regress is possible. If Cause N was brought about by Cause N-1, which was in term brought about by Cause N-2, which in turn was cause by Cause N-3, on and on back into infinity - I count this as impossible.

I regard it a Fact that an infinite regress is impossible.

So at this point we can talk about the concept of God and a idea of Theology which is formed on Facts. I will not wait for you to stop evading. Theology can be based on facts and you statement was wrong.

Now I find it a bigger leap of "faith" to believe in an infinite regress of causes that to believe in an eternal and all powerful God Who has no Origin and Who cannot not exist. That is a necessary Being Who is the ground of being.

I take "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth .." as a statement of truth. I also take it as a statement for which you have absoutely no scientific evidence which demonstrates the falsity of the statement.

This self existing God is of necessity, ever-existing, immortal, eternal, without origin, Who alone has immortality, and outside of time (yet can penetrate it and interact with it).

Time marks the beginning of created existence, and because God never began to exist it can have no application to HIm.

Now as to an eternal universe, I regard that time cannot be infinitely extending into the past. For this minute could not be arrived at if there were an infinity of minutes to be traversed. So that fact that we arrived at this minutes proves the beginning of time.

If there were an infinity of minutes before the present minute then it would take infinity to traverse the infinite and this minute could never be arrived at.

So I believe that time and space had a created beginning and that the Steady State theory has legitimately fallen into disuse. The Big Bang theory is more in harmony with a Caused to exist universe brought about by an uncreated First Cause of God.

This is not an exhaustive statment of my beliefs. But it is a statement and it is indeed built upon facts.

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By the way, If I had never been born, all the parts that currently make me were here already existing so looking at it that way, I have existed(all be it in different arrangements) at least since the big bang and possibly before, if the big bang resulted from a big crunch of a previous universe.
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I don't think that you practically live that way and that you recognize yourself as having indeed had a beginning.

And YOU are more than the chemical components lying around in the stars and in the dust floating in space and in the ground.

I think this philosophy dehumanizes your humanity.

Dear Jaywill,

My job is to get people to think. You said every thing must have a cause then immediately say god did not have a cause. I'm sure you see my problem with your statement. My position is at least consistent.

Jesus( whose real name was Joshua of Nazarith) was a very wise and pro social human being, but certainly not a god. If you really were a follower of Jesus, you would sell all your property as he requires and donate the proceeds to charity because Jesus says this is necessary to do if you want to get into heaven.

Further. Jaywill, I have more faith that you would do the right thing than god. If god were really capable of arranging the universe, he did a poor job. For example, I am sure you would not design a universe with so much suffering , and if you are a father, I know you would not sacrifice your son as and proclaim it to be good. If you happen to be catholic, I find it disgusting to imagine eating the body of Jesus and drinking his blood.

Finally, I reject all religions,(and there have been hundreds over the centuries.) You reject all religions except one, i.e., the one you were no doubt born into. I reject all religions for the same reason you reject all religions except your own.

Hey, it's a free country and people can be as irrational as they want. You will have a lot more veracity with me once you sell all your belongings and donate them to charity. (You do want to go to heaven don't you?)

This God is of necessity, without origin.

Originally posted by jaywill
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Again, let's cut to the chase.
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If I really wanted to cut to the chase I would ask you why should I trust you over Jesus Christ? What is it in your character which has built up more credibility and more approvedness than Jesus?

That's what I'd ask you if I really wanted to cut to the in space and in the ground.

I think this philosophy dehumanizes your humanity.[/b]

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By the way, you got it right when you say god never began to exist.
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I know. And God cannot not exist or cease to exist or not be eternal.

By the way that is different from a man not knowing God. A man not knowing God is a distinct other problem from God not beginning to exist. Don't confuse the two.


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Obviously, using your everything must have a cause theory,
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You still seem not to be able to quote me correcty. I said Everything that Exists the has the possibility to NOT exist.

Put another way - Everything that BEGAN to exist has a cause.

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if god never began to exist, he does not exist.
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No sir. If God never began to exist then God belongs to a class of beings of which there is only ONE member - God - Himself. IF God always existed and always will exist then God belongs to a catagory occupied by no one but Himself.

This is why we call God God. This is why God is unique. And in biblical terms this is why God is described as "Holy". God is other than all other things that exist which are not God.

But to be carefu, the word "holy" is also used from certain things which are consecrated to or dedicated to God. However "You ALONG are holy" refers to Him as the source of that uniqueness which is different from all other things.

You don't like this uniqueness. Perhaps you want to reserve it for yourself. Most of us do. But this uniqueness belongs to our Creator.

We are made in the image of God. So we do somewhat take an important part in reflecting this uniqness.

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Again, you see my problem with your position. Either everything requires a cause,
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There you go again. Le't go through it one more time. I gave you two statements:

1.) Everything that Begins to Exist Has a Cause.

2.) Everything that Exist which has the Possibility to NOT exist, has a Cause.


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or it doesn't. You want it both ways. I merely say, if god does not require a cause, perhaps the universe doesn't require one either.
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Are you reading the words that I wrote?

Now about the uncreated Universe, Apparently from most scientific corners the univese is thought to have BEGAN ti exust. Therefore it has the POSSIBILTY of not existing.

Everything that began to exist has a cause.

Everything that has the possibility to not exist but DOES exist, has a cause.

You may wish to return to a Steady State theory of a perpetual universe. But this has pretty much been disregarded for the Big Bang beginning of the universe.


Also the mathematical problem of traversing an infinite amount of time to arrive at this minute, is said to prove that time has had a beginning.

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Regarding your idea the existence of time, when traveling at the speed of light,time stands still so not all parts of the universe are on the same clock.
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I am aware of time dialation.

As fascinating as Time DIalation is I don't think it removes the probability of a Causeless Cause which we may call God.

But I am short on time this morning and will think on it today.


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We think the big bang took place 12 or 15 billion years ago, but to light created by the big bang which is still traveling in space, the big bang took place less than a nano second ago.
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And this is this second. IF there were an infinite of seconds as in an eternal universe, this second could not be arrived at. Or it would take infinity to arrive at this second.

This prove that time had a beginning.

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You say the whole universe operates under the laws of physics except god.
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I may have implied that. I don't think I wrote it. However, when we talk about "the laws of physics" then I put forth that there was a Law Giver of those laws of physics.

Where else would the laws come from? God made the laws. And God can transcend the laws if He has a reason to do so.

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I say the whole universe operates under the laws of physics period.
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How did the laws come to be laws? What or Who decided what the laws were going to be?

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Have a nice day and good luck to you! 667joe
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One question before you go. You seem to hold to a eternally existing universe.

Do you whole to the future of the universe being to dissolve and pass out of existence? I mean according to the laws of physics will this universe which alwsys existed in your belief grow cold, disperse, die out, darken, and pass out of existence?

How do you account for the laws of entropy not effecting the demise of the univese in the distant distant future?


Have a great day too.

Using your logic, Jesus must not have the qualities in full of a deity because he came into existence 2000 years ago and therefore has not always been in existence, and therefore did have a cause.

Science, again has yet to figure out what came before the big bang. One theory is a big crunch of a previous universe led to the big bang.This universe could also end up in a big crunch.

We had a time when religion ruled the world. It's called the Dark Ages! In those days, religion burned people at the stake for saying the earth traveled around the sun. Religion advised not getting the small pox vaccination because it would thwart the will of god. There are some religious people today who won't seek medical care for their children and will actually let their children die as a show of faith.

By the way, I think deep down you are really not a believer because you are not going to sell all your earthly belongings and donate the proceeds to charity as Jesus requires.

Religion is the biggest hoax mankind has perpetrated on himself. Ever since the Dark ages, mankind has been drifting away from religion, and one day, religion will disappear. You, my friend, are on the wrong side of history.

Originally posted by jaywill
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Let's cut to the chase.You are going to say that god is the 1st creator without which nothing else could exist. The usual theist when asked how god got here says god has always been here.........but if god could have always been here with out having a prior cause, the universe could also have been here without a p thing else?

IF you do not agree say so. "No, that is not a FACT." Is that your reply?