Religious Belief Choices Vs. The Public's Desire

Originally posted by KellyJay
The flower shop sold them flowers before, for the wedding was the issue.

From the Huffingpost:

For nearly a decade, Robert Ingersoll and his partner, Curt Freed, had bought bouquets from local business Arlene's Flower Shop, owned by Barronelle Stutzman, reports the Tri-City Herald. So it was Stutzman the men sought out when they recently decided to get married. (Same-sex weddings became legal in Washington State in December 2012.)

As I see it, according to the Holy Bible, marriage of humans is meant to be the joining of a male with a female. The joining of two males or two females in the same way as a male and a female seems to be described as an abomination to God.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination:

(Leviticus 20:13 KJV)

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

(Romans 1:26-27 KJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds
As I see it, according to the Holy Bible, marriage of humans is meant to be the joining of a male with a female. The joining of two males or two females in the same way as a male and a female seems to be described as an abomination to God.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)
[qu ...[text shortened]... ving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. [/quote]
(Romans 1:26-27 KJV)

I agree it is a sin, I'm also a sinner saved by grace I'm not a sinless person
in my own right. That said, since we are all sinners I would serve everyone
no matter what they looked like, what they believed or not believed in, and
so on. What I would not want to be forced into is accepting everything all
others believe in if I reject it completely.

If it is about the people serve them, if it is about an event then I have to
see what it is I'm about to be a part of.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree it is a sin, I'm also a sinner saved by grace I'm not a sinless person
in my own right. That said, since we are all sinners I would serve everyone
no matter what they looked like, what they believed or not believed in, and
so on. What I would not want to be forced into is accepting everything all
others believe in if I reject it completely.

I ...[text shortened]... le serve them, if it is about an event then I have to
see what it is I'm about to be a part of.

Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH '? "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given."

(Matthew 19:3-11 NASB)

Originally posted by RJHinds

Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BE ...[text shortened]... cept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given."

(Matthew 19:3-11 NASB)

I believe in marriage between one man and one woman. I hope you
understand that?

Originally posted by KellyJay
The flower shop sold them flowers before, for the wedding was the issue.

From the Huffingpost:

For nearly a decade, Robert Ingersoll and his partner, Curt Freed, had bought bouquets from local business Arlene's Flower Shop, owned by Barronelle Stutzman, reports the Tri-City Herald. So it was Stutzman the men sought out when they recently decided to get married. (Same-sex weddings became legal in Washington State in December 2012.)

So what that it was for a wedding?

That is irrelevant.

IF you are a business that sells flowers, and do wedding flowers, then you
sell them to anyone who is legally allowed to ask for them.

Period.

You don't get to discriminate based on your beliefs.

You don't get to impose your beliefs on other people by denying them equal access
to services you normally render.

THAT is the entire point of ALL anti-discrimination laws and legislation.

And it applies equally both ways.

A gay flower seller would have to provide flowers to a religious fundamentalist wedding.

This is the only [practical] way of preventing a majority from shutting out a minority.


On this issue you happen to be in the majority, in your country, at this time.

However that could, and likely will, change in the coming decades.

If you change the law now to allow discrimination then it will likely be you, or people like
you, who are the victims in the future.

Originally posted by RJHinds
As I see it, according to the Holy Bible, marriage of humans is meant to be the joining of a male with a female. The joining of two males or two females in the same way as a male and a female seems to be described as an abomination to God.

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

(Leviticus 18:22 KJV)
[qu ...[text shortened]... ving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. [/quote]
(Romans 1:26-27 KJV)

We know you are a homophobic bigot.

You don't have to keep reminding us, it's not like we've forgotten.

Originally posted by googlefudge
We know you are a homophobic bigot.

You don't have to keep reminding us, it's not like we've forgotten.

I never said I was a homophobic bigot and I have not been reminding anyone of such a thing. But I will remind you that you are a numbnuts. 😏

Originally posted by googlefudge
So what that it was for a wedding?

That is irrelevant.

IF you are a business that sells flowers, and do wedding flowers, then you
sell them to anyone who is legally allowed to ask for them.

Period.

You don't get to discriminate based on your beliefs.

You don't get to impose your beliefs on other people by denying them equal access
to s ...[text shortened]... crimination then it will likely be you, or people like
you, who are the victims in the future.

"So what that it was for a wedding?

That is irrelevant."

So what it was a wedding, if you can read all the posts on the topic and
miss why, I don't think you will ever see it. The whole point was the wedding.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I agree it is a sin, I'm also a sinner saved by grace I'm not a sinless person
in my own right. That said, since we are all sinners I would serve everyone
no matter what they looked like, what they believed or not believed in, and
so on. What I would not want to be forced into is accepting everything all
others believe in if I reject it completely.

I ...[text shortened]... le serve them, if it is about an event then I have to
see what it is I'm about to be a part of.

when reality won out during my sophomore year of college and I finally had to admit to myself that I was gay, I was both relieved and crushed -- relieved because everything that hadn't made sense about my life finally did, and because love no longer seemed like an impossibility for me, but crushed because of the likelihood that I would be rejected and lose the community I had always called home.

I'm not generally a rebellious person. It's not in my DNA. But I'm also no fan of misery and self-loathing, so I opted for the more rebellious route in this case. I didn't want to lose my relationships with people back home, though, or the sense of belonging that I'd had in Kansas. There were just a few things standing in the way of that goal. To name them: Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, and Romans 1:26-27.

These are the Scripture passages that I knew many people from my home church took as the final word on this issue. These three verses in the Bible, as well as three others (Genesis 19:5, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Timothy 1:10), have proven the end of the road for so many who have tried to gain acceptance from their Christian parents, friends, and pastors for so long.

Could it be true? Could it really be that this holiest of books, which contains some of the most beautiful writings and inspiring stories known to mankind, along with the unparalleled teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, also happens to require the emotional and spiritual destruction of sexual minorities? For any of us who learned to love the Jesus who called the little children to him, whose highest law was that of love, and who was a fierce defender of the downtrodden and the outcast, this simply did not seem possible.

If it were true that God wanted to devastate the souls, psyches, and lives of gay people, then how could He be a loving God? This could no more be consistent with His loving character than if God truly wanted white people to enslave and oppress black people for centuries. For any Christian who has struggled to come to terms with their own church's persecution of gay people, this is the contradiction we have faced. Anti-gay teachings have caused an untold amount of pain and suffering in the world. They have borne very bad fruit and thus have failed Jesus' own test for good teachings (Matthew 7:15-20).

So two years ago, I took a leave of absence from college and committed myself to thousands of hours of research and study about the Bible and homosexuality. I wanted to figure it out, to resolve this contradiction. But as someone who has always upheld Scripture as authoritative for Christian faith, I didn't want to accept easy answers that failed to do justice to the biblical text. It took a lot of time, to say the least.

But earlier this month, after having invested thousands of hours into research, I gave a presentation at a Methodist church here in Wichita, Kan. on this subject. It's a little over an hour long, and yes, it's a lot to absorb. But what I wanted more than anything when I was wrestling with coming out was a single resource that explained everything about these Bible verses, one that I could confidently ask my more conservative friends to watch and consider. But for all the resources that are out there, none of them fit the bill. Few of them were intentionally and respectfully addressed to Christians who are "traditionalists" on this issue. So I set out to make my own.

This video is the product of that. Please watch it and share it. My family and a number of our friends proved to be accepting, I am happy to report, but not everyone is so fortunate. My heart breaks for all the LGBT kids in churches around the world that do not understand or accept them, and I know firsthand how much fear and pain that causes them. The goal of this video is to reach those kids, no matter where they are, and to walk them through, step by step, these few passages in the Bible. Then, they can share it with their parents and friends, and they can have something solid to stand on when asking their communities for acceptance. Yes, this video is long, but it is thorough. This is a message that everyone needs to hear, even if you aren't a Christian, and even if you don't believe in the Bible, because how Christians interpret these few verses of Scripture has a huge impact on the lives of LGBT people all over the world.

Again, please watch it and share it. But also learn these arguments: absorb them, and be able to repeat them whenever anyone, anywhere tries to make an anti-gay argument from Scripture. The Bible does not condemn loving gay relationships. It is not opposed to justice and equality for gay people, and in fact it supports their equal right to marry. Scripture can prove to be one of our greatest allies, if only we're reading it correctly.

YouTube

Originally posted by finnegan

when reality won out during my sophomore year of college and I finally had to admit to myself that I was gay, I was both relieved and crushed -- relieved because everything that hadn't made sense about my life finally did, and because love no longer seemed like an impossibility for me, but crushed because of the likelihood that I would be rejected a ...[text shortened]... allies, if only we're reading it correctly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSraY

What you call yourself, what you are, what you claim to be has nothing to
do with the topic in my opinion. You should be treated as everyone else, the
life style you live is yours and you like I will answer for our lives.

The topic we have been batting around has to do with public service and
private events. The public service is that everyone can be served cake,
they can get their pictures taken and do whatever, the line I've been talking
about has to do with specific actions that are private, that are events that
not everyone is apart of such as a wedding.

With respect I don't believe being gay is on par with being black, one is
due to desires and taste the other is who they are physically.

Originally posted by KellyJay
What you call yourself, what you are, what you claim to be has nothing to
do with the topic in my opinion. You should be treated as everyone else, the
life style you live is yours and you like I will answer for our lives.

The topic we have been batting around has to do with public service and
private events. The public service is that everyone can be ...[text shortened]... on par with being black, one is
due to desires and taste the other is who they are physically.

When you wrote "I agree it is a sin" you were responding to RJH and specifically a quote from Leviticus, saying "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." This was included at the head of your own post.

I in turn responded to what you posted with a completely relevant discussion of the Leviticus citation and others of the same ilk, all allegedly identifying homosexual acts as sinful - indeed, abominable. Since you and RJH are working with a harsh and oppressive interpretation of scripture on this topic, it seems to me helpful to point out a Christian believer's refutation of your interpretation.

Obviously, if your religious objection is not valid even in terms of your own religion, then your defence to the obligation of public service without discriminating against the LGBT community is pretty well sunk. It is perfectly possible and reasonable for a practising and sincere Christian, with a detailed knowledge of scripture, to support homosexuality in principle and homosexual acts in particular.

Your closing assertion that sexual orientation is a matter of choice rather than something with which one is born also flies in the face of so much evidence that it is no longer acceptable as a valid point of view among considered adults - it is mere bigotry.