Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Hmmm . . .
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    19 Feb '16 05:111 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Most of the Christians in this forum have either told me or insinuated that I'm not a Christian. You never objected to that.
    Most? Just a question. (You might be right. It is just a question.)

    But it does seem to come down to this (whether admitted or not): Hold the “right” doctrine, and you’re a “Christian”—hold the “wrong” doctrine, and you’re not.

    Amidst the arguments over “faith” and “works,” where does love come in? If love is greater than faith (1st Corinthians 13:13), and—at least in one version of “proper doctrine”—faith is sort of the “minimum requirement” for salvation, can love then be ignored? And if love is not active in “works”? And if God actually is love (agape)—how does that relativize all the rest under that rubric?

    (I am not interested in some complex, word by word analysis of what the Biblical texts might say—we have seen that on here enough, and it never leads to agreement.)

    But—If I love, and love is even greater than faith . . . then who condemns my love? Where in Christian doctrine is love (agape) condemned? Where in Christian doctrine are “belief” or “works” held higher than love—assuming that by “works” are not meant simply acts of love?

    I have been told on here—more than once, over the years, in a Christian context—that love is not somehow “sufficient .” Sufficient, I wonder, for what?

    I now wonder if, in all my arguments with Rajk—over just works versus grace—I missed the point. Love is what undergirds both.

    Now, I am sure that there are any number of Christians who are willing here to rush in from the wings to tell me what I need to be a “True Christian™”, and why. I really don’t care. This has been going on for years on here. There is no one on these threads to whom I grant the authority to tell me what I “must” think, believe, or do. And all those who are so quick to quote the Biblical texts (in more or less detail) sometimes seem to forget that I don’t necessarily hold their readings/understandings as authoritative.

    Love and grace—that’s the best I can do, to the best of my (flawed) ability (which is why I need grace). But so many Christians seem to think that just the “right” belief (thinking), or just the “right” morality, or just the “right” doctrine is what matters.

    I will risk it all on love. Those who have other religious requirements can say what they will.

    Anyway, I have an inkling, at least, of what you feel. Maybe it is "most".
  2. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    19 Feb '16 08:04
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Who is the Pope too tell anyone they are or not a Christian?
    Heretic!
    Didn't Jesus give "the keys of heaven" to St Peter?
    Isn't the Pope the successor to St Peter?
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    19 Feb '16 08:11
    Originally posted by whodey
    According to Catholics, the Pope is God's right hand man.

    He is just quoting the passage in Nehemiah about building walls as being a sin.

    Oh wait, they were instructed to build a wall around Jerusalem for protection.

    My bad.
    Fine by me he can say who is or is not a good Catholic, not a Christian.
  4. SubscriberSuzianne
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    19 Feb '16 08:22
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Most of the Christians in this forum have either told me or insinuated that I'm not a Christian. You never objected to that.
    Really? You have to come in here and make it about you?
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    19 Feb '16 08:40
    Originally posted by whodey
    According to Catholics, the Pope is God's right hand man.

    He is just quoting the passage in Nehemiah about building walls as being a sin.

    Oh wait, they were instructed to build a wall around Jerusalem for protection.

    My bad.
    There is also a wall where the Pope hangs out too isn't there?
  6. Standard memberFMF
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    19 Feb '16 08:43
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Really? You have to come in here and make it about you?
    Come on now, it was kind of ironic/hypocritical of KellyJay, of all people, to say "Who is the Pope too tell anyone they are or not a Christian?" when he has no apparent compunction about doing exactly that himself. Someone had to point it out. 😉
  7. Standard memberDeepThought
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    19 Feb '16 08:52
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    There is also a wall where the Pope hangs out too isn't there?
    This is a point, I haven't heard that the Vatican City has taken any refugees from Syria. Although the Vatican shouldn't be criticised just for having them, most cities of any antiquity have walls, they became a little pointless with the invention of gunpowder. Possibly he could have a bridge built over it?
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    19 Feb '16 11:44
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Cue Matthew 25:31-46 . . .


    . . . and old friend Rajk.


    (Edited for mis-typing.)
    So you would agree with the Pope? Donald is not a Christian?
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    19 Feb '16 11:45
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Are you saying that President Obama is not a Christian?
    I'm just wondering why the Pope was silent about Barack all this time
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    19 Feb '16 11:46
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Most of the Christians in this forum have either told me or insinuated that I'm not a Christian. You never objected to that.
    So long as you don't favor building walls on the border I think you are safe with the Pope.
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    19 Feb '16 11:47
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    There is also a wall where the Pope hangs out too isn't there?
    What needs to happen is for a group of people to fly to the Vatican and hold large signs that say, "Pope Franicis, tear down this wall!"
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    19 Feb '16 11:48
    Originally posted by FMF
    Come on now, it [b]was kind of ironic/hypocritical of KellyJay, of all people, to say "Who is the Pope too tell anyone they are or not a Christian?" when he has no apparent compunction about doing exactly that himself. Someone had to point it out. 😉[/b]
    So you agree that the Pope can do this but no one else?
  13. Standard memberFMF
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    19 Feb '16 11:59
    Originally posted by whodey
    So you agree that the Pope can do this but no one else?
    The purportedly theological content of Christians bickering over who is and isn't a TrueChristian™ is of no ideological concern to me personally, although I find the constant and sometimes rancorous holier-than-thou wrestling fascinating.
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    19 Feb '16 12:56
    Originally posted by whodey
    So long as you don't favor building walls on the border I think you are safe with the Pope.
    I haven't seen any Christian say you're not a Christian. I certainly haven't said it.

    On the other hand I am frequently surprised at some of the things you do and say, bearing in mind that you say you are a Christian.
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    19 Feb '16 12:57
    Originally posted by whodey
    https://www.yahoo.com/politics/pope-says-trump-not-christian-views-plans-over-170430873.html

    Apparently the Pope has said that Donald Trump is NOT a Christian because he wants to build a wall along Mexican/US border
    What I think the Pope actually said was that Christians build bridges, not walls.
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