Revelation 17,18

Originally posted by sonship
The author, I believe is [b]John, the same author of the Gospel. [/b]

Is this known as a fact and is it accepted by all Christians and biblical scholars?

(I made a mistake somewhere in a previous post, saying, I think, there were no capital letters in NT Greek. That was wrong. And I have started to re-study the language.)

The vision of Revelation 17 concerns a prostitute riding on a scarlet beast. It has to be symbolic. And the vision is about the judgment of such a prostitute. That judgment is a destruction of what is called Babylon the Great.

And the vision is delivered by one of the angels who has just carried out judgments for God. The angle wants to show John this allegorical destruction of Babylon the Great as an important vision for him to see.

"And one of the angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits upon many waters,

with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and those who dwell on earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (v,1)

The Bible ends with a Bride and Wife of the Redeeming God-man Christ. She is called New Jerusalem. The nemesis of this Wife of the Lamb in Revelation 21 and 22 is this great woman who is called a Mother.

This nemesis of the Wife and Bride is a Mother of other woman like her. In other words, whatever she is has been duplicated in others like her.

"And on her forehead there was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (v.5)

We are therefore dealing with something abominable which has spawned off other entities like it. That is to one degree or another degree what Babylon is is carried over to other entities that have been derived from Babylon the Great.

It is important to realize that whatever this bad woman represents, she is a mother of daughters who are like her - "THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS ..."

We should therefore realize that the judgment to fall upon the "MOTHER" is likely to also involve her daughters. The daughters cannot gloat as if they are not also culpable to God's judgment in some degree. Rather the daughters of the mother ought take from her judgment lessons of fear and instruction, that they also as daughters, be delivered from the mother's sins.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Your comment is useful in that various judgments are revealed in Revelation. There is a judgment on world empires and there is judgment on religious empires.

This why chapter 17 begins with one of the angels who have just unleashed judgment on world powers to want to take John aside and reveal to him other judgment.

And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters. (1)

In other words, John has witnessed one form of judgment. Now a kind of line of demarcation is made and he is to see another form of judgment.

This bad woman is in the wilderness.

"And he carried me away in spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlot beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads nad ten horns." (v.3)

What I want point out here is that John is taken to a waterless, desolate place - [b}the wilderness[/b]. This may indicate that God wants to show that this whole matter is spiritually dry, spiritually desolate, spiritually short of life supply.

A wilderness is a desert place. Sometimes it has the positive significance in symbolism as separation from the world. Here is is, I beiieve, not positive but negative, The wilderness indicates a place where there are no springs of water prepared by God.

All the redeemed are said to be led to springs of waters of life -

"For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and guide them to springs of waters of life; and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Rev. 7:17)

The Mother of Harlots is in a place of spiritual desolation, dryness, thirst and lack of refreshment of the divine life of the Spirit of God,

While I speak of the critical matters about this woman it is always important to remember that as a "MOTHER" , she has spawned off other descendants who share some of her problems. The principle to see here is that God wants His people to be ever watered within. He wants believers in Christ to have rivers of water flowing from their innermost being continually (John 7:37,38)

The New Jerusalem become a city of water.
The lake of fire is a lake of burning flame.
The Mother of Harlots is neither. She is in a desolate dry place.

She is drinking and is even satiated and drunk. But it is not with the Spirit of Christ as fountains of waters of life or rivers of living water. She is satiated and drunk with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus Christ.

" And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus." (6a)

Concerning the water of life she is dry.
Concerning the persecution of the witnesses of Jesus she is drunken and befuddled. That means she is made intoxicated with a kind of insane enjoyment. That insane intoxication is from her killing of the servants of Jesus.

Latter we will see there is somewhat of a distinction between the Harlot and the Woman. I hope to show that the Harlot speaks more of the religious aspect and the Woman speaks of the material aspect. The Harlot is the apostate degraded mixture of fallen Christiandom, especially the Roman Catholic Church. The Woman is the city of Rome.

But the two are closely related.

The woman is the apostate church. Whatever the New Jerusalem is as the final Wife and Bride of Christ in chapters 21 and 22, the climax of the whole Bible, this woman is the failed illegitimate counterfeit of.

And it is possible that Christians be in transition from one state to the other. The matter is not so simple as assigning the blame to "those people over there." Rather there are aspects of both the Harlot and the Wife which are in all Christians temporarily, at the same time.

Originally posted by FMF
To claim "everyone" knows it's true is patently untrue. On what basis do you claim it is "true" for everyone? In fact, scale it down: on what basis do you claim it is "true" for just you and me?

I didn't say it was true for you. You've rejected it.

Can we get on with the thread now?

Originally posted by FMF
Is this known as a fact and is it accepted by all Christians and biblical scholars?

No and no.

Originally posted by sonship
(I made a mistake somewhere in a previous post, saying, I think, there were no capital letters in NT Greek. That was wrong. And I have started to re-study the language.)

The vision of Revelation 17 concerns a prostitute riding on a scarlet beast. It has to be symbolic. And the vision is about the judgment of such a prostitute. That judgment is a destru ...[text shortened]... of other woman like her. In other words, whatever she is has been duplicated in others like her.

This quotation is ambiguous. From the snippet it is not clear if the harlot is being judged or doing the judging. I feel this is fairly important to the interpretation of the quote.

We talk about the judgements of Solomon, where he is the judge. But this seems unlikely when talking about a "great harlot".

Originally posted by Suzianne
I didn't say it was true for you. You've rejected it.

Can we get on with the thread now?

You said "Everyone knows it's true, except those who have rejected it."

Isn't another way of saying this: "Everyone 'knows' it's true, except those who 'know' it isn't true."

It always strikes me as odd that your God figure (the way you and other Christians here tell it, anyway) has given such a tenuous and ill-defined 'revelation' to be getting on with. Doesn't your God figure want to convince all humans with demonstrative and unequivocal indications of His existence and His instructions?

Originally posted by DeepThought
This quotation is ambiguous. From the snippet it is not clear if the harlot is being judged or doing the judging. I feel this is fairly important to the interpretation of the quote.

We talk about the judgements of Solomon, where he is the judge. But this seems unlikely when talking about a "great harlot".

It's rather clear that she is guilty, and so she is being judged. There would not be much meaning in her doing the judging.

Originally posted by FMF
You said "Everyone knows it's true, except those who have rejected it."

Isn't another way of saying this: "Everyone 'knows' it's true, except those who 'know' it isn't true."

It always strikes me as odd that your God figure (the way you and other Christians here tell it, anyway) has given such a tenuous and ill-defined 'revelation' to be getting on with. D ...[text shortened]... all humans with demonstrative and unequivocal indications of His existence and His instructions?

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I already said that this thread would be interesting if we could keep the naysayers and the interruptions to a minimum. I realize you want to make everything about yourself, but give it a rest.

This verse is not a small matter at all -

"And he carried me away in spirit into a wilderness; and I saw ... " (v.3)

FOUR times in the book of Revelation John says he was carried away in spirit. Each of the four times it is a crucial vision. Each time he must be "in spirit".

In spirit is a matter of touching the spiritual part of our being. Some things we cannot understand unless we are in spirit. In spirit ios a matter of being in a prayerful state with an open heart to God. In spirit is not a small matter.

Here are the four times John is said to have crucial vision while in spirit or being carried away in spirit.

1.) The vision of the seven local churches. (chapters 1)
2.) The vision of the scene in heaven of the inaguration of Christ before God in chapters 4 and 5.
3.) The vision of the judgment of the Mother of Harlots in a wilderness in ch. 17.
4.) The vision of the final New Jerusalem as the Wife of Christ, the climax of the whole Bible (chs. 21,22).

Without john being "in spirit" he could not see these four critical visions. The natural mind is not adequate. The spirit of wisdom and revelation is needed. These passages should be prayed over and with "in spirit".

These are four pillars of the book of Revelation.

One city - one church. (local churches)
Christ ascending to heaven in exaltation before God Almighty the Creator to open up the contents of the seven seals of God's will and economy in the universe.
The judgment of the apostate counterfeit Harlot riding upon the world's political powers.
The cimax of the Wife and Bride of Jesus - New Jerusalem as the very conclusion of history.

Not only can John be in spirit. But every reader of the book of Revelation can turn his or her heart to the Lord Jesus with an open spirit and a loving heart to see something of these great visions.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yeah, yeah, yeah... I already said that this thread would be interesting if we could keep the naysayers and the interruptions to a minimum. I realize you want to make everything about yourself, but give it a rest.

I am trying to make it about the credibility of the source ~ Book of Revelation ~ and the 'truth claim' Christians like you make about its origin and supposed 'divine inspiration'. It is you who wants to make it about me ~ and that is so often your go-to get-out when asked to justify the validity of things you claim.

Originally posted by DeepThought
This quotation is ambiguous. From the snippet it is not clear if the harlot is being judged or doing the judging. I feel this is fairly important to the interpretation of the quote.

We talk about the judgements of Solomon, where he is the judge. But this seems unlikely when talking about a "great harlot".

This quotation is ambiguous. From the snippet it is not clear if the harlot is being judged or doing the judging. I feel this is fairly important to the interpretation of the quote.
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This takes time.
On my part at least, I am trying not [edited] to rush through.

My "snippets" may become clearer as I develop some.
Give me a moment and without rushing too far ahead, I will make a comment you may find useful.

Originally posted by DeepThought

This quotation is ambiguous. From the snippet it is not clear if the harlot is being judged or doing the judging. I feel this is fairly important to the interpretation of the quote.
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Please read Revelation 17:16 for some preliminary understanding.

" And the ten horns which you saw and the beast, THESE WILL HATE THE HARLOT ... "

Without going into a lot of interpretation it is evident that the BEAST upon the which the Harlot rides, these two come into an adversarial relationship.

If a horse upon which a rider is sitting HATES the one sitting and riding upon it, there will be trouble. Right? Well here what she rides becomes to hate its rider. Maybe the relationship was better in the past. But it turns into hatred from the one being ridden upon towards the rider.

"And the ten horns which you saw and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire. " (v.16)

The time will come when powerful world forces under Satanic control will expose and destroy the apostate degraded Christiandom.

This is the judgment of God. And that is proved by the following verse:

"For God has put it into their hearts to perform His mind and to perform one mind and to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God are accomplished.

And the woman whom you saw is the great city, which has a kingdom over the kings of the earth."

The hatred of the Beast, horns and ridden upon monster is the source of the Rider - the Harlot being exposed, burned and made desolate. But this is of God. This is God judging indirectly by permitting the world powers at that time to fulfill His mind to destroy the Harlot.

"Come out of her My people" is the cry of the next chapter. That means that the people of God are called to come out of that thing which is being hated and exposed and burned up by the world powers.

It is not necessary yet to speak of horns. It is only necessary to understand that the coming Antichrist will eventually exalt himself and his government above all that is called God or is worshipped.

"Who OPPOSES and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship, so that he sits in the temple of God, setting himself forth, saying that he is God." ( 2 Thess. 2:4)

The hatred of the world rulers towards the Mother of Harlots derives from the leader's eventual desire to exalt himself above all objects of worship - real or imagined.

Indirectly, under God's sovereignty this causes Him to allow some things to be judged which God wants to rid the earth of.

They do it for THEIR purpose. Under God's providence their opposition is used to judge the apostate Harlot and her daughters. He does not judge directly the abominable counterfeit religion, Under His sovereignty the Antichrist and his government do that job for Him.

"For God has put it into their hearts to perform His mind ..."