1. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    16 Feb '10 08:523 edits
    interesting reading was an article written by Bill Underwood for the news group, The Examiner. He wondered at the percentage of his donations that would reach the people in Haiti and did what all good investigative journalists would do, asked around. He phoned thirty churches in his Phoenix area. Here are his questions,

    • How many different services do you have in a week?
    • What is your average attendance?
    • Do you pass a collection plate at each service?
    • Do you pass it more than once?
    • Do you suggest/require a donation amount? How much?
    • Do you communicate by letter, email, or phone call with your members regarding amounts they are suggested/required to donate?
    • Besides the upkeep of your facility, what are the donations used for?
    • Do you have salaried ministers or other local employees of the church?
    • Are you asking your members to give something extra for Haiti?
    • If so, are you taking that money from the regular donations, or do you have some special arrangement? (Passing a collection plate again, sending out request letters, etc.)
    • If you are making special donation arrangements for Haiti, do you have a target figure?
    • What percentage of the funds earmarked for Haiti do you expect to reach Haiti? (For example, the American Red Cross gets less than stellar reviews in several places on the web for spending too much on administrative costs.)
    • Where are you sending the Haiti funds? (your organization’s upper management, CARE, United Way, etc.)
    • What arrangement do you have for informing members of what they are contributing and how their money is being used?
    I look forward to hearing from you.

    He asked he Bapists, the Lutherans who claimed that 100% would reach Haiti, despite the fact that their officials are salaried, therefore he wondered, how could that be?

    Check these figures for a Lutheran minister and his salary,

    As of 2006, the President of the LCMS received a salary of $158,870. The First Vice President, $129,160. The Secretary: $147,263. Vice President/Treasurer: $147,263. Chief Administrative Officer: $129,160. Executive officers of major legal entities (Corporate Synod, CPH, CHI, Church Extension Fund, Foundation) received an average annual salary of $133,864. Executive directors of Corporate Synod, WBP, other boards, commissions and departments including LCEF and LCMS Foundation) and CPH VP and other officers received an average salary of $122,350.

    mmm nice work if you can get it.

    and finally with regard to yours truly, he reports

    Each congregation is presided over by an unpaid body of elders. . . . The brothers and sisters who live and work at the world headquarters in New York and in branch offices around the world are all volunteers. None – from the newest laborer to the members of the governing body of Jehovah’s Witnesses – receive a salary.

    the full article can be found here,

    http://www.examiner.com/x-17373-Phoenix-Signs-of-the-Times-Examiner~y2010m1d26-Helping-Haiti-Give-generously-but-wisely
  2. Joined
    15 Sep '04
    Moves
    7051
    16 Feb '10 09:03
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    interesting reading was an article written by Bill Underwood for the news group, The Examiner. He wondered at the percentage of his donations that would reach the people in Haiti and did what all good investigative journalists would do, asked around. He phoned thirty churches in his Phoenix area. Here are his questions,

    • How many different ser ...[text shortened]... /x-17373-Phoenix-Signs-of-the-Times-Examiner~y2010m1d26-Helping-Haiti-Give-generously-but-wisely
    If only all churches embraced the vow of poverty.
  3. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    16 Feb '10 09:111 edit
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    If only all churches embraced the vow of poverty.
    hi Conrau, you must forgive my ignorance, what is the vow of poverty? is it Biblical?
  4. Joined
    15 Sep '04
    Moves
    7051
    16 Feb '10 10:07
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    hi Conrau, you must forgive my ignorance, what is the vow of poverty? is it Biblical?
    A vow of poverty is a vow to God to never hold personal possessions -- either refusing property or a salary, or else sharing all these things in common with a community who profess this same vow. This is not biblical; it does not pretend to be. It is simply a way in which some choose to live out Jesus' commandment to "go sell what you hast, and give to the poor" (Matthew 19:16-21.)
  5. Joined
    02 Jan '06
    Moves
    10087
    16 Feb '10 10:533 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    interesting reading was an article written by Bill Underwood for the news group, The Examiner. He wondered at the percentage of his donations that would reach the people in Haiti and did what all good investigative journalists would do, asked around. He phoned thirty churches in his Phoenix area. Here are his questions,

    • How many different ser ...[text shortened]... /x-17373-Phoenix-Signs-of-the-Times-Examiner~y2010m1d26-Helping-Haiti-Give-generously-but-wisely
    That is nothing. I once heard that only 9 cents on the dollar that goes toward welfare actually reaches those in need in the US. The rest is government overhead. I am just waiting for the government to step in and demand that all "charity" be government run.

    As for my church, they made it perfectly clear which funds go where. That is why they had two seperate collections, one for the church and one for Haiti.
  6. Territories Unknown
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    16 Feb '10 11:02
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    interesting reading was an article written by Bill Underwood for the news group, The Examiner. He wondered at the percentage of his donations that would reach the people in Haiti and did what all good investigative journalists would do, asked around. He phoned thirty churches in his Phoenix area. Here are his questions,

    • How many different ser ...[text shortened]... /x-17373-Phoenix-Signs-of-the-Times-Examiner~y2010m1d26-Helping-Haiti-Give-generously-but-wisely
    So, what you're saying is your religion is run like a Walmart?
  7. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    16 Feb '10 11:14
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    So, what you're saying is your religion is run like a Walmart?
    i am not saying anything, i merely posted an article that i felt was of interest. What is your own denomination i venture to ask?
  8. Territories Unknown
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    16 Feb '10 11:15
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i am not saying anything, i merely posted an article that i felt was of interest. What is your own denomination i venture to ask?
    Denomination of none.
  9. Account suspended
    Joined
    26 Aug '07
    Moves
    38239
    16 Feb '10 11:182 edits
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Denomination of none.
    oh i see you are your own church, an island. Yes i have met many persons like that, always interesting if not a little defensive. Now you shall explain your analogy, for unless walmart are self financing and self sufficent, i dont think its a good one, unless of course its an indirect reference to the low wages. i myself am not a fan of walmart (ASDA in the U.K), in fact i loathe them, they sell goods that are less than reliable with reputable companies names on them.
  10. Territories Unknown
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    16 Feb '10 11:25
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    oh i see you are your own church, an island. Yes i have met many persons like that, always interesting if not a little defensive.
    Technically speaking, all believers are the church, but I hardly think that was your drift.

    No, what I am saying is that I am not beholden to any denomination, as I find no support for the same biblically. While I will not darken the door of certain denomination buildings for any type of worship, there remain a few wherein worship can take place, albeit with varying sizes of the proverbial grains of salt.

    The Walmart comment is pointed toward some people's predilection to help God along. Many of the good people who work for that corporation are more than willing to be paid far less than their efforts are worth, simply because they have convinced themselves that they are working for some greater good. Similarly, those religions which insist that work or human effort is part of the equation have no trouble at all finding folks willing to contribute their life blood in an effort to gain the approbation of the designated deity.

    If that's defensive in your book, so be it.
  11. SubscriberProper Knob
    Cornovii
    North of the Tamar
    Joined
    02 Feb '07
    Moves
    51424
    16 Feb '10 11:29
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    interesting reading was an article written by Bill Underwood for the news group, The Examiner. He wondered at the percentage of his donations that would reach the people in Haiti and did what all good investigative journalists would do, asked around. He phoned thirty churches in his Phoenix area. Here are his questions,

    • How many different ser ...[text shortened]... /x-17373-Phoenix-Signs-of-the-Times-Examiner~y2010m1d26-Helping-Haiti-Give-generously-but-wisely
    During my brothers drinking days, he once knocked on the towns vicars front door. The vicar lives in a massive house all on his own next to the church (which is the counties largest). And asked him if he thought it was acceptable as a Christian that he should live in this huge house all by himself when lots of families in town were living in small sheltered accomodation ie. my brothers.

    Not sure exactly what happenned next, but my brother thinks the vicar tried to bless him and at that point he threw up on the doorstep.

    Apart from being very drunk, i think my brother had a point.
  12. Territories Unknown
    Joined
    05 Dec '05
    Moves
    20408
    16 Feb '10 11:32
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    During my brothers drinking days, he once knocked on the towns vicars front door. The vicar lives in a massive house all on his own next to the church (which is the counties largest). And asked him if he thought it was acceptable as a Christian that he should live in this huge house all by himself when lots of families in town were living in small shelte ...[text shortened]... int he threw up on the doorstep.

    Apart from being very drunk, i think my brother had a point.
    From the sound of it, your brother had multiple points. If the vicar was as nimble as he was well off, he was able to avoid them all.
  13. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    16 Feb '10 12:10
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    And asked him if he thought it was acceptable as a Christian that he should live in this huge house all by himself when lots of families in town were living in small sheltered accomodation ie. my brothers.
    But why pick on the priest? Surely the whole congregation and then some were Christians too? Was your brother a Christian?
    Why does your brothers 'point' only apply to Christians? As a human being, why should you live in a huge house all by yourself when lots of families in town are living in small sheltered accommodation? (Here in Cape town, there are homeless people too!)
    Do Christians have a special obligation not to be richer than their neighbors? Do priests have a special obligation to be exemplary Christians?
  14. Joined
    15 Sep '04
    Moves
    7051
    16 Feb '10 12:142 edits
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    During my brothers drinking days, he once knocked on the towns vicars front door. The vicar lives in a massive house all on his own next to the church (which is the counties largest). And asked him if he thought it was acceptable as a Christian that he should live in this huge house all by himself when lots of families in town were living in small shelte ...[text shortened]... int he threw up on the doorstep.

    Apart from being very drunk, i think my brother had a point.
    I think your brother was being totally unfair. That house does not belong to the vicar. Most likely it belonged to the diocese or even possibly to the community itself. This vicar was appointed to that home and would have had no authority to sell it or even to share it.

    In my own experiences, the presbytery (where the priest lives) serves as an ad hoc office. It is where the priest conducts meetings with the parish council and where he speaks to individuals. So even if your brother considers this home an ostentatious display of wealth, it still might serve a vital function in the community. It might not accommodate a family -- yet it might be where the priest counsels a couple about to marry or comforts a grieving widow.

    Sorry, I don't mean to pick on your brother. I think a lot of people think the same way as your brother. I just want to explain why this is not fair.
  15. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    16 Feb '10 12:19
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    mmm nice work if you can get it.
    There are clearly different ways to run a Church - salaried officials or all voluntary. I can think of various arguments for both.
    Then there is the issue of how much to pay salaried officials.
    And finally there is the issue of disclosure when obtaining donations.
    I get the feeling from your post that you are using a possible lack of disclosure to criticize the salaried officials system. If so, you are being a bit unfair as it is far more complicated than that.

    Why not list some of the advantages / disadvantages of both systems?
    Let me start:
    Disadvantages of salaried officials:
    1. People may be in it for the money.
    2. People may find ways to get 'over paid'.
    Advantages
    1. If there is a lack of volunteers this may be the only option.
    2. They are able to spend more time on the job rather than just weekends etc.
    3. Not only those who have spare time and money get to be officials.
    I guess you can reverse most of the above for the volunteer system.
Back to Top