Salvation and Justice

Originally posted by Alcra
Based on the salvation theory, here is a new question (at least for me). Again, my interest is purely academic, so all views welcome.

Bob kills Sam. Bob is a bad man, while Sam is a good man (but not "saved", as he has not confessed his sins). Sam goes to hell, as he died in a state of sin (is this true so far? )

Bob now confesses his sins and is absol ...[text shortened]... As I stated before, this is not a "bashing" session, and all views (and
corrections) welcome.

First of all, let's keep in mind that these premises are false, if you're coming from an atheistic point of view. Atheists don't believe in 'good' or 'bad'; simply smart and stupid.

To answer your question, your definitions of 'good' and 'bad' are critical. Why is the good man good? Because he doesn't negatively affect others? That would be more 'indifferent' than good. I'll take a leap and say you consider him to be a good man because he donates to charity and feeds the homeless. OK. Not bad. But does he ever lie? Does he ever lust? Those aren't good. Is there a quota to meet to be considered a good man?

If he dies in a state of 'I don't need my Maker (God)' then yes, he will go to an eternal state away from God.

If the 'bad' man (I assume he negatively affects others, which is more rude than bad) repents, then yes, he will go to heaven. Here's the thing, repent does not mean go to a priest and tell him how bad you were. Repent means 'change of mind'. It means you are truly ashamed of your sins and wish to align your will with God's perfect will. The 'bad' man would be transformed into a better man than the 'good' man before he died.

Originally posted by Darfius

First of all, let's keep in mind that these premises are false, if you're coming from an atheistic point of view. Atheists don't believe in 'good' or 'bad'; simply smart and stupid.

Are you on crack? Where did you get an idea like this? I'm an atheist and I believe that there are objective moral truths. You should educate yourself concerning secular ethical theory.

Originally posted by bbarr
[b]First of all, let's keep in mind that these premises are false, if you're coming from an atheistic point of view. Atheists don't believe in 'good' or 'bad'; simply smart and stupid.

Are you on crack? Where did you get an idea like this? I'm an atheist and I believe that there are objective moral truths. You should educate yourself concerning secular ethical theory.
[/b]

Bbarr: " I'm an atheist ..... "

Oops, since when have you stopped being a Deïst ?

Originally posted by bbarr
[b]First of all, let's keep in mind that these premises are false, if you're coming from an atheistic point of view. Atheists don't believe in 'good' or 'bad'; simply smart and stupid.

Are you on crack? Where did you get an idea like this? I'm an atheist and I believe that there are objective moral truths. You should educate yourself concerning secular ethical theory.
[/b]

I was referring to those who were being honest rather than deluded, bbarr. It is nice to 'say' there are objective moral truths, but where do they come from, bbarr?

Originally posted by Darfius
First of all, let's keep in mind that these premises are false, if you're coming from an atheistic point of view. Atheists don't believe in 'good' or 'bad'; simply smart and stupid.

How do you come to these conclusions about people you know absolutely nothing about Darfius? How can you be so quick to judge?

I can assure you my moral standards are as high as any so called christian you've ever met. And I've met plenty with lower moral standards than mine. Quite a few of them are family members.

And don't give me any jibberish about "premises being false". Answer the question. How do you know what my moral standards are?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Bbarr: " I'm an atheist ..... "

Oops, since when have you stopped being a Deïst ?

Was I ever a deist? I don't think the deistic conception of the divine is accurate. I don't think the theistic conception of the divine is accurate either. In fact, I don't think any conception of the divine is accurate. I think that attempts to conceptualize the divine constitutes idolatry and self-worship.

Originally posted by Darfius
I was referring to those who were being honest rather than deluded, bbarr. It is nice to 'say' there are objective moral truths, but where do they come from, bbarr?

That wasn't your original claim. Your original claim was that atheists do not believe in moral goodness and badness. I am an atheist and I do believe in moral goodness and badness. Hence your claim is false. If you want to discuss what I take to be the source of normativity broadly speaking or morality in particular, then that is fine, but it is also a different conversation (and I'll expect a non-contradictory answer to Euthyphro's question from you). Your orginal claim had nothing to do with the foundations of morality, but rather with the beliefs of atheists. Retract your original claim and we can continue.

Originally posted by bbarr
That wasn't your original claim. Your original claim was that atheists do not believe in moral goodness and badness. I am an atheist and I do believe in moral goodness and badness. Hence your claim is false. If you want to discuss what I take to be the source of normativity broadly speaking or morality in particular, then that is fine, but it is also a di ...[text shortened]... lity, but rather with the beliefs of atheists. Retract your original claim and we can continue.

Fine, I retract my original claim and say the premises are false because honest atheists do not believe in 'good' and 'bad'.

Originally posted by wib
How do you come to these conclusions about people you know absolutely nothing about Darfius? How can you be so quick to judge?

I can assure you my moral standards are as high as any so called christian you've ever met. And I've met plenty with lower moral standards than mine. Quite a few of them are family members.

And don't give me any jibberish ...[text shortened]... t "premises being false". Answer the question. How do you know what my moral standards are?

I know what they should be.

Originally posted by Darfius
I know what they should be.

That's not an answer Darfius. I can get more accurate information than that from a horoscope.

How do you know what a person's moral standards are without knowing anything about them?

Originally posted by bbarr
Was I ever a deist? I don't think the deistic conception of the divine is accurate. I don't think the theistic conception of the divine is accurate either. In fact, I don't think any conception of the divine is accurate. I think that attempts to conceptualize the divine constitutes idolatry and self-worship.

Bbarr: "Was I ever a deist?"

If my memory serves me well ..... erm .... yes !

Do you deny ever being one ?

Originally posted by wib
That's not an answer Darfius. I can get more accurate information than that from a horoscope.

How do you know what a person's moral standards are without knowing anything about them?

I don't. Check out my new statement. It sums it up nicely. Atheists who know what they should believe do not believe in 'good' or 'bad'. They are illusions meant to comfort.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Bbarr: "Was I ever a deist?"

If my memory serves me well ..... erm .... yes !

Do you deny ever being one ?

I don't remember saying that, but if you can find the quote I'd like to read it. If I did say that, then I can only plead conversion!

Originally posted by Alcra
Based on the salvation theory, here is a new question (at least for me). Again, my interest is purely academic, so all views welcome.

Bob kills Sam. Bob is a bad man, while Sam is a good man (but not "saved", as he has not confessed his sins). Sam goes to hell, as he died in a state of sin (is this true so far? )

Bob now confesses his sins and is absol ...[text shortened]... As I stated before, this is not a "bashing" session, and all views (and
corrections) welcome.

I would have to say you are right.

Romans 3:23;Romans 10:9-13;Romans 8:1

Well, here's my stance on salvation, as I understand it, from the Bible.

The OT was about justice. Man was judged based upon his actions. Under the divine laws of this time, in the example given as the basis of this thread the murderer would have been unable to simply confress and go to heaven. Under the premise of the OT confession did not have the same spiritual meaning.

The NT is not about justice. It is about salvation by grace, and by that I mean that the actions of the individual were not as important as the "heart" (if you will) of the person. Example: Joe does some bad things. Joe is honestly sorry for doing those bad things and accepts the premise of Christ (God made flesh, taking the personas place in judgement, etc., etc., etc., etc.). Thusly, Joe is not held spiritually accountable for the bad things he has done, and likewise in the future Joe will: A. Reform his life out of love, etc. as best much as his heart dictates (innate and/or divine love compelling him). and B. If/When he does further "bad" things (a.k.a. sins), he is likewise repentant for such actions.

The best way I can explain the difference is this. God in the OT judged man exactly as he was. His intent, his decisions, all known to the omniscient God, judged him exactly as he was. True and complete justice. The NT God imposed a "rehabilitation" program if you will. Offenders could join this program, absolutely free, and as such be pardoned for their inequities. This program has innate checks and balances (i.e. if your heart is true to the law, you obvoiusly won't be breaking the law without care.).

I hope that this makes sense. I find it very difficult to give euphamisms to explain something so complex, as nothing truly conveys the entiretly other than explaining the entire thing in depth and at length. I hope this was of some small help to someone though. 😉

Best Regards

Omnislash

EDIT: I wanted to note that I do not believe that the good man who repented in the story will go to hell. Neither do I believe he won't. I believe the is under that same laws as that of the OT. If he has heard the truth of Christ and rejected that, then that shall be considered in his judgement for sure. Is he damned? I can not say, nor can any man. The scriptures tell us of THE way to heaven, post NT. It does not command damnation to those that do not follow that path to the letter. I once had a fine discussion with a lutheran pastor about the salvation premise of those who never hear the scriptures. We came to the conclusion that they would be judged much like the people of the OT.