1. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    04 Oct '05 11:31
    I've been reading up on Savonarola (as a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola) & wondering whether I'd have supported him or not. On the balance, and to my surprise, I think I'd have hated his guts & cheered when he got his. How about you?
  2. London
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    04 Oct '05 11:37
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I've been reading up on Savonarola (as a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola) & wondering whether I'd have supported him or not. On the balance, and to my surprise, I think I'd have hated his guts & cheered when he got his. How about you?
    Exactly why were you surprised you hated his guts?
  3. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    04 Oct '05 11:40
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Exactly why were you surprised you hated his guts?
    Well, he was supposed to have been a moral reformer, and is often considered a fore-runner of the Reformation, along with Luther. Plus the Pope he was up against. Alexander Borgia, was an out-and-out scumbag. However...
  4. London
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    04 Oct '05 11:56
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Well, he was supposed to have been a moral reformer, and is often considered a fore-runner of the Reformation, along with Luther. Plus the Pope he was up against. Alexander Borgia, was an out-and-out scumbag. However...
    An honest question - do you think you are more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to people who have opposed the Church than those who have been loyal to it?
  5. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    04 Oct '05 12:091 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    An honest question - do you think you are more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to people who have opposed the Church than those who have been loyal to it?
    Frankly, I've given up on giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.

    Anyhow, do you think the public turned against Savonarola because they wanted to be as licentious as the Pope?
  6. Standard memberDavid C
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    04 Oct '05 12:52
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    & the Bonfire of the Vanities
    Best Tom Wolfe novel ever. :^P
  7. Calgary
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    04 Oct '05 12:58
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I've been reading up on Savonarola (as a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola) & wondering whether I'd have supported him or not. On the balance, and to my surprise, I think I'd have hated his guts & cheered when he got his. How about you?
    I like my Vanities, but doesn't this just illustrate how easily lead people can be? How powerful mob mentality is? Most of us would have gone along, and still cehered when he went up in smoke.
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    04 Oct '05 13:07
    Originally posted by Canadaguy
    I like my Vanities, but doesn't this just illustrate how easily lead people can be? How powerful mob mentality is? Most of us would have gone along, and still cehered when he went up in smoke.
    Most of us would have cheered for him when he was in favour & cheered when he burned. Quite Shakespearian.

    Social reform seems to work better when religion is removed from the equation entirely.
  9. Calgary
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    04 Oct '05 13:081 edit
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Most of us would have cheered for him when he was in favour & cheered when he burned. Quite Shakespearian.

    Social reform seems to work better when religion is removed from the equation entirely.
    agreed




    My monkey thread was ignored in this forum. That makes me sad.
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    04 Oct '05 13:123 edits
    I dont like religious conservatives. But I would have probably been one if I lived in his time.
  11. London
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    04 Oct '05 13:14
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Frankly, I've given up on giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.

    Anyhow, do you think the public turned against Savonarola because they wanted to be as licentious as the Pope?
    Frankly, I've given up on giving anyone the benefit of the doubt.

    That's quite a pessimistic view of the human race. I hope your faith in mankind is restored some day.

    Anyhow, do you think the public turned against Savonarola because they wanted to be as licentious as the Pope?

    Was that question serious or sarcastic? I'll assume the former.

    I really don't know much about the Savonarola case. If I had to make a guess, I would think that he crossed a line in popular perception - instead of being seen as a critic of excesses in the Church and Culture he was seen as a critic of the Church and Culture themselves.
  12. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    04 Oct '05 13:14
    Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
    I dont like religous conservatives. But I would probably be one if I live in his time.
    Which was the more conservative in this case--Savonarola or the licentious Pope?
  13. London
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    04 Oct '05 13:16
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Most of us would have cheered for him when he was in favour & cheered when he burned. Quite Shakespearian.

    Social reform seems to work better when religion is removed from the equation entirely.
    Social reform seems to work better when religion is removed from the equation entirely.

    Does it? Did the French Revolution improve the situation of the masses? What about the Russian Revolution?
  14. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    04 Oct '05 13:16
    Originally posted by lucifershammer

    I really don't know much about the Savonarola case. If I had to make a guess, I would think that he crossed a line in popular perception - instead of being seen as a critic of excesses in the Church and Culture he was seen as a critic of the Church and Culture themselves.
    That seems accurate. Read up on it in the Catholic Encyclopedia. His chief fault apparently was "disobedience".
  15. London
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    04 Oct '05 13:16
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Which was the more conservative in this case--Savonarola or the licentious Pope?
    Can I ask you another question - do you see a difference between the Office of the Papacy and the person holding that office?
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