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    16 Nov '08 00:337 edits
    Through study and observation, researchers have identified various uniform operations of things in the universe and have recognized laws covering such uniformity in natural phenomena. One such is ‘the law of gravity.’ Scientists admit the complexity and yet the reliability of these laws, and in calling them “laws” imply the existence of one who put such laws into force. Skeptics view a miracle as a violation of laws they accept as natural, irrevocable, inexorable; therefore, they say, a miracle never occurs. It is good to keep in mind that their attitude is that if it is not understandable and explainable to us as far as we discern these laws, it cannot happen, is it not so you bad ol putty cats!

    However, capable scientists are becoming increasingly cautious about saying that a certain thing is impossible. professor John R Brobeck of the university of pennsylvania stated: 'a scientist is no longer able to say honestly something is impossible. He can only say it is improbable. But he may be able to say something is impossible to explain in terms of our present knowledge. Science cannot say that all properties of matter and all forms of energy are now known......(for a miracle) one thing that needs to be added is a source of energy unknown to us in our biological and physiological sciences. in our scriptures (those who profess belief in them that is) this source of energy is identified as the power of God and since this statement (see above)was made, further scientific development has made it more emphatic! lol

    Scientists do not fully understand the properties of heat, light, atomic and nuclear action, electricity, or any of the forms of matter under even normal conditions. even more deficient is their understanding of these properties under unusual or abnormal conditions. For example, it is relatively recently (last thirty years or so) that extensive investigations have been made under conditions of extreme cold, but in this brief time, many strange actions of the elements have been observed. Lead, which is not an ideal electrical conductor, when immersed in liquid helium cooled to a temperature of minus 271 degrees Celsius (that being minus 456 degrees Fahrenheit) strangely becomes a superconductor and a powerful electromagnet when a bar magnet is placed near it. At such supercold temperature helium itself appears to defy the law of gravity by creeping up the side of a glass beaker and over the edge, draining itself out of the container - matter, life science library, pages 68 and 69.

    This discovery is one of many that have astounded scientists, seeming to upset their former ideas. How, then, can anyone say that God violated his own laws in performing powerful works that seemed amazing and miraculous to men? Surely the creator of the physical universe has perfect control of that which he created and can maneuver these things within the framework of the laws he has made inherent in them. (read Job 38 for example) he can bring about the condition necessary for the performance of these works; he can speed up, slow down, modify, or neutralize reactions.

    Certainly the scientist is not superseding or going beyond physical laws when he applies more heat or cold, or more oxygen, and so forth, to speed up or slow down a chemical process. nevertheless, skeptics challenge the biblical miracles, including the 'miracle' of creation. These challengers are asserting, in effect, that they are familiar with all conditions and processes that ever took place. They are insisting that the operations of the creator must be limited by the narrow confines of their understanding of the laws governing physical things, bad ol putty cats that they are!

    This weakness on the part of scientists is acknowledged by a Swedish professor of plasma physics, who pointed out: 'no one questions the obedience of the earth’s atmosphere to the laws of mechanics and atomic physics. all the same, it may be extremely difficult for us to determine how these laws operate with respect to any given situation involving atmospheric phenomena,' (quotation from worlds-antiworlds, by H  Alfven page 5) The professor applied this thought to the origin of the universe. God established the physical laws governing the earth, sun, and moon, and within their framework men have been able to do marvelous things. surely God could bring the laws to play so as to produce a result unexpected by humans; it would present no problem for him to split the Red Sea for example! infact is ther not a scientific phenomena termed the Moses effect when electromagnetism is passed near water?

    therefore since the acknowledgment of the existence of law, such as the law of gravity, presupposes a lawmaker of surpassing, superhuman intelligence and power, why question his ability to do marvelous things? why try to limit his operation to the infinitesimally narrow scope of man’s knowledge and experience? who can tell?
  2. Donationkirksey957
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    16 Nov '08 01:11
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Through study and observation, researchers have identified various uniform operations of things in the universe and have recognized laws covering such uniformity in natural phenomena. One such is ‘the law of gravity.’ Scientists admit the complexity and yet the reliability of these laws, and in calling them “laws” imply the existence of one who put s ...[text shortened]... ration to the infinitesimally narrow scope of man’s knowledge and experience? who can tell?
    There has been some discussion about the nature of miracles in the forum before and it has usually pitted those who believe in a supernatural event against those who look at events as simply "natural."

    However, what I think makes a miracle a "miracle" is my interpretation of it. If I believe God's hand was involved in it (even if it is something simple) I may choose to be that it is indeed a miracle. Say for example if Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt and was able to cross the Red Sea (Sea of Reeds) at low tide and it worked who is to say that may not feel like a miracle if all I've known is slavery.
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    16 Nov '08 09:10
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    There has been some discussion about the nature of miracles in the forum before and it has usually pitted those who believe in a supernatural event against those who look at events as simply "natural."

    However, what I think makes a miracle a "miracle" is my interpretation of it. If I believe God's hand was involved in it (even if it is something simp ...[text shortened]... and it worked who is to say that may not feel like a miracle if all I've known is slavery.
    yes but this is simply just an attempt to explain a miracle within the terms of a natural event, which they clearly are not, because as the sacred account states it would be very difficult for pharaoh and the Egyptian army to die at 'low tide', dont you think?
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    16 Nov '08 12:331 edit
    The biblical 'miracles' are only hearsay. Nothing more.

    I myself have a friend who have a friend who have a friend who once could levitate higher than treetops. This could be a miracle. I say not. That's only hearsay.

    The biblical miracles are no better than the modern urban legends...
  5. Donationkirksey957
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    16 Nov '08 13:22
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes but this is simply just an attempt to explain a miracle within the terms of a natural event, which they clearly are not, because as the sacred account states it would be very difficult for pharaoh and the Egyptian army to die at 'low tide', dont you think?
    They could perish at high tide. Dead is dead.
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    16 Nov '08 14:411 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    The biblical 'miracles' are only hearsay. Nothing more.

    I myself have a friend who have a friend who have a friend who once could levitate higher than treetops. This could be a miracle. I say not. That's only hearsay.

    The biblical miracles are no better than the modern urban legends...
    if you would care to quote on the above then that would be fine for as far as i can discern you have merely corroborated what what said, in that, just because you state something does not necessarily mean that it is true and secondly just because you do not or cannot understand something also does not mean that its is impossible, on the contrary many of the biblical miracles were conducted in full public, attested to by many witnesses and were done with the purpose of establishing certain criteria with respect to god and his purposes!
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    16 Nov '08 14:50
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    They could perish at high tide. Dead is dead.
    yeh and i am bob dylans grannie! if you actually refer to the biblical account it states that the waters were held aloft as in a wall, to the left and to the right, exodus 14;22 , nope just another attempt to take god out of the equation and view miracles from a strictly human viewpoint, sorry, you gonna have to do better than mere conjecture and speculative thinking!
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    16 Nov '08 16:162 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Through study and observation, researchers have identified various uniform operations of things in the universe and have recognized laws covering such uniformity in natural phenomena. One such is ‘the law of gravity.’ Scientists admit the complexity and yet the reliability of these laws, and in calling them “laws” imply the ex to the infinitesimally narrow scope of man’s knowledge and experience? who can tell?
    "Scientists admit the complexity and yet the reliability of these laws, and in calling them “laws” imply the existence of one who put such laws into force...therefore since the acknowledgment of the existence of law, such as the law of gravity, presupposes a lawmaker of surpassing, superhuman intelligence and power, why question his ability to do marvelous things?"

    I only see inference on your part and no such implication or presupposition. That said, science likely understands little of reality and there are many paradigm shifts to go before it starts approaching it. As such, "miracles" would not be outside the realm of possibility.
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    16 Nov '08 16:221 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    if you would care to quote on the above then that would be fine for as far as i can discern you have merely corroborated what what said, in that, just because you state something does not necessarily mean that it is true and secondly just because you do not or cannot understand something also does not mean that its is impossible, on the contrary man ...[text shortened]... ere done with the purpose of establishing certain criteria with respect to god and his purposes!
    robbie carrobie: "just because you state something does not necessarily mean that it is true"

    ... and that goes both ways. What anyone says is not a proof that it is the truth. I'm aware that the Truth (uppercase T, global Truth) cannot be known, but the truth (lowercase t, individual truth) can be different for everyone. So most of what I and you and everyone says is mere opinions, nothing more.

    robbie carrobie: "secondly just because you do not or cannot understand something also does not mean that its is impossible"

    .. and more or less the same comment as the one above can be applied here too. This mean that, as an example, evolution is not understood by creationists doesn't mean that evolution is not a fact.

    Who understand god? Noone, in detail. This doesn't have anything to do with the existance of god. And this is what religion and faith is about - to believe in things not provable.

    robbie carrobie: "...on the contrary many of the biblical miracles were conducted in full public, attested to by many witnesses and were done with the purpose of establishing certain criteria with respect to god and his purposes!"

    And that can be said of any urban legend. Things that has been wittnessed by many people, allegedly, and written down as truths. Even Mein Kampf is written in the same spirit. If enough people believe in one truth, then it is not automatically The Truth, is it? No, of course not.

    If you believe in miracles, fine, we have freedom of religion. But it doesn't make them as scientific Truths. Miracles is 'by definition' religious, and as that, non-scientific. Religion and Science never mix.
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    16 Nov '08 18:05
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    The biblical 'miracles' are only hearsay. Nothing more.

    I myself have a friend who have a friend who have a friend who once could levitate higher than treetops. This could be a miracle. I say not. That's only hearsay.

    The biblical miracles are no better than the modern urban legends...
    I doubt that there are many urban legends that are as spectacular as alot of the Bible miracles are.
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    16 Nov '08 18:51
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yeh and i am bob dylans grannie! if you actually refer to the biblical account it states that the waters were held aloft as in a wall, to the left and to the right, exodus 14;22 , nope just another attempt to take god out of the equation and view miracles from a strictly human viewpoint, sorry, you gonna have to do better than mere conjecture and speculative thinking!
    What does vs 21 say?
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    16 Nov '08 18:521 edit
    Originally posted by gambit3
    I doubt that there are many urban legends that are as spectacular as alot of the Bible miracles are.
    Doesn't matter. Spectacularity isn't important here.
    Urban legends are based on hearsay. So are the biblical 'miracles'.

    "I know a friend who knows a friend who knows a friend that a yoga guru actually can levitate. He have written it down in his book. Therefore it must be true." (?)

    No, there are no miracles.
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    16 Nov '08 19:00
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Doesn't matter. Spectacularity isn't important here.
    Urban legends are based on hearsay. So are the biblical 'miracles'.

    "I know a friend who knows a friend who knows a friend that a yoga guru actually can levitate. He have written it down in his book. Therefore it must be true." (?)

    No, there are no miracles.
    Suppose someone is given a life expectancy of 6 months with incurable cancer. They receive chemotherapy or radiation and have lived 5 years. This person calls it a miracle. Who am I to disagree with his interpretation?
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    16 Nov '08 19:05
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Suppose someone is given a life expectancy of 6 months with incurable cancer. They receive chemotherapy or radiation and have lived 5 years. This person calls it a miracle. Who am I to disagree with his interpretation?
    Please do, but I don't call it a miracle. Miracles is something you have to have a religion to believe in, you must have faith that there is some supernatural cause. I'm not religious, I don't have faith needed to believe in miracles.

    If medicine is miracles, then the whole drugstore is contained with miracles. It's not that simple. There are reasons, even if we don't know them.

    By all means, believe in miracles. We have freedom of religions, any religions.
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    16 Nov '08 19:14
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Please do, but I don't call it a miracle. Miracles is something you have to have a religion to believe in, you must have faith that there is some supernatural cause. I'm not religious, I don't have faith needed to believe in miracles.

    If medicine is miracles, then the whole drugstore is contained with miracles. It's not that simple. There are reasons, ...[text shortened]... ow them.

    By all means, believe in miracles. We have freedom of religions, any religions.
    I hear people talk a lot about miracles in that they want God to heal them. However, what I tend to hear is that they want magic. That's another story. I can talk about my discussions at that point but it gets rather complicated.
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