science and miracles

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
The gravitation al constant may have been different than before the BB. The speed of light may have been different. Atoms may not have been the building blocks of elements. All of these would be "miraculous" by our standards, just like a person who survives 40 years a disease that a doctor (read: scientist) says will kill them in 6 months.

Things has to be more than fantastic to be a miracle. I passed an exam once that I didn't prepare too much. It was fantastic, but it wasn't a miracle.

I cannot argue about the laws of nature in the pre-Bangian era. Nor can anyone else. But it would be funny if there were no physics at all in this era.

What we know of today is, that the same gravitatioal constant is a really constant, and nothing can change this constant locally so it's possible to walk on water. No way. To have that it takes a miracle, and no science could explain that.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
But it would be funny if there were no physics at all in this era.

Ahhh! But NOT impossible. That is my only point. Pre BB could have had NO "rules" whatsoever; everything could have been random.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Ahhh! But NOT impossible. That is my only point. Pre BB could have had NO "rules" whatsoever; everything could have been random.

Well, possible or not, that's what we disagree upon.

With no physics at all, then why would a universe appear with very rigid set of laws?

What was before BB, we are just speculating, nothing more. Your opinion is as valid as mine. We don't even know, either of us, if there were a pre-bangian era or not.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Well, possible or not, that's what we disagree upon.

With no physics at all, then why would a universe appear with very rigid set of laws?

What was before BB, we are just speculating, nothing more. Your opinion is as valid as mine. We don't even know, either of us, if there were a pre-bangian era or not.

I agree that here is where we disagree--but I think it's on your last point---not your first. I know perfectly well that there was a time before the BB. What was there and what it was made of, you're right--your speculation is as good as mine.

Originally posted by twhitehead
God is imaginary.
I do not think there is a meaningful definition of 'supernatural'.
If there exists something that influences our universe then that influence is either entirely random or it follows a pattern. The study of that pattern would be scientific. The existent something would be 'natural'.

Right. The Pattern.

This is exactly the way the Yogi, the Suffists, the students of QBLH, the Zennists et al are proceeding