science and miracles

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Doesn't matter. Spectacularity isn't important here.
Urban legends are based on hearsay. So are the biblical 'miracles'.

"I know a friend who knows a friend who knows a friend that a yoga guru actually can levitate. He have written it down in his book. Therefore it must be true." (?)

No, there are no miracles.

yeah and the moon is made of green cheese !, how can i get this point across, just because you state something does not mean that its true, all you have asserted is that they are here-say, no proof, all you have stated is that they are the equivalent of urban myths - no proof, and the latter illustration is completely irrelevant as it is a non biblical occurrence or non -occurrence, who can say, we are strictly speaking in biblical context - sorry i give no credibility to those outside of this context!

Originally posted by kirksey957
I hear people talk a lot about miracles in that they want God to heal them. However, what I tend to hear is that they want magic. That's another story. I can talk about my discussions at that point but it gets rather complicated.

generally magical feats involve use of charms, secret arts, special staging or rituals to produce seemingly supernatural effects, often used to trick observers into believing that the practitioner has special powers and utilised to increase the practitioner wealth and fame, in complete contrast to this bible miracles are noted for their public nature, their simplicity and extreme lack of sensationalism and their purpose and motive, performed without an outward display and often in response to a chance occurrence, so clearly they cannot be described as the process of magic!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yeah and the moon is made of green cheese !, how can i get this point across, just because you state something does not mean that its true, all you have asserted is that they are here-say, no proof, all you have stated is that they are the equivalent of urban myths - no proof, and the latter illustration is completely irrelevant as it is a non biblic ...[text shortened]... tly speaking in biblical context - sorry i give no credibility to those outside of this context!

You have your opinion, I have mine, it's called debate.

If moon actually were made of green cheese, that would surely be a miracle... 🙂

That's right, the biblical miracles, like Jesus went on water, his resurrection, the partening of the Red Sea, and a lot of other events in the bible called miracles, is just hearsay. Some are provable that they've never existed, like that the sun stood still in the sky for a while, some are not provable at all, and we have to relay on hear-say only.

Miracles is about religion, has nothing to do with science.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
You have your opinion, I have mine, it's called debate.

If moon actually were made of green cheese, that would surely be a miracle... 🙂

That's right, the biblical miracles, like Jesus went on water, his resurrection, the partening of the Red Sea, and a lot of other events in the bible called miracles, is just hearsay. Some are provable that they've ...[text shortened]... ave to relay on hear-say only.

Miracles is about religion, has nothing to do with science.

yes but at least i provided a basis for my assertion, all you did was state it and hey, it must be true, so where is your proof, if you want the forum to consider you're point of view where is the evidence, make with the readies my man or be still and hold your tongue! what is your proof that they never happened? or admit it, publicly that you cannot state with any certainty that they did not and that the basis for your reasoning is an assumption on the most scant of assertions, that just because you state something it is therefore true, because that is what you are saying!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes but at least i provided a basis for my assertion, all you did was state it and hey, it must be true, so where is your proof, if you want the forum to consider you're point of view where is the evidence, make with the readies my man or be still and hold your tongue! what is your proof that they never happened? or admit it, publicly that you cann ...[text shortened]... hat just because you state something it is therefore true, because that is what you are saying!

When you prove something religious, then it's not religious anymore. Religious things cannot be proven. And miracles are religious phenomena. Thus not provable.

I think in the first answer to you, and my postings thereafter, I thought I was rather clear.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
When you prove something religious, then it's not religious anymore. Religious things cannot be proven. And miracles are religious phenomena. Thus not provable.

I think in the first answer to you, and my postings thereafter, I thought I was rather clear.

nor disprovable it seems from your rather small but significant admission, thank you for that, and just for the record there are many so called 'scientific realities', which cannot be proven, for example the theory of evolution yet many profess to believe that, therefore if we are to state that something religious cannot be proven, by your own words , something that is scientifically unproven must be unscientific, is it not? however i myself do not hold the view that science and religion, at least in a biblical context are at odds, for me, they are in complete harmony, for just as certain scientific phenomena occur in unusual circumstances, so it is with regard to the physical laws of the natural universe and miracles!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
nor disprovable it seems from your rather small but significant admission, thank you for that, and just for the record there are many so called 'scientific realities', which cannot be proven, for example the theory of evolution yet many profess to believe that, therefore if we are to state that something religious cannot be proven, by your own words ...[text shortened]... circumstances, so it is with regard to the physical laws of the natural universe and miracles!

Can we at least agree that we're not agree? And that this is alright, because there are as many opinions as there are readers of this thread? Do we really have to have the same opinion at all?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Can we at least agree that we're not agree? And that this is alright, because there are as many opinions as there are readers of this thread? Do we really have to have the same opinion at all?

lol, yes we can agree to disagree, and what is more, not only can we disagree but there is no need to be disagreeable, do you agree?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
lol, yes we can agree to disagree, and what is more, not only can we disagree but there is no need to be disagreeable, do you agree?

Agree 🙂

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Agree 🙂

lol, you know i nearly married a girl from Sweden, twice! once was a girl from Umea in the north she was half lap lander and quite unassuming, the other was a flutist studying at the royal Scottish academy of music and drama in Glasgow, from Norkkoping, Christina, she was in love with being in love and not with Robbie - ah the pain!

Originally posted by FabianFnas
The biblical 'miracles' are only hearsay. Nothing more.

I myself have a friend who have a friend who have a friend who once could levitate higher than treetops. This could be a miracle. I say not. That's only hearsay.

The biblical miracles are no better than the modern urban legends...

That's not quite what is going on. With the miracles in the Bible, they are only significant insofar as their expression of God. Having a friend of a friend that could levitate higher than treetops - how does that reveal God (spirituality)? I would propose that it does not and is therefore not a miracle in Biblical context.

If all one is looking at with a Biblical miracle is the gee-whiz-ain't-that-a-great-trick-that-came-at-the-right-time or "My prayer has been answered! It's a miracle!" then one is not understanding whatever spiritual significance may lie in the story. The story does not have to be factual or true by today's standards in order to glean some meaning from it. To paraphrase the good reverend, it matters not to me that the Jews crossed a body of water out of Egypt. If it happened or didn't happen, it's still the same to me. I wasn't there and I don't care. But what it reveals about the nature of the relationship between Jews and God to end their enslavement and the extraordinary effort needed to break from that slavery...well, maybe there is something I can get from that story, even if it's a metaphor to me. I'm not about to pretend that I can have any insight the way kirksey does. The story must have a profound meaning to him that I cannot know. Not every story (or miracle) speaks to everyone. If it doesn't speak to me then I prefer to not talk, but to listen to those it speaks to and why it does. And then - if I'm understanding kirksey and his feelings about slavery, if I understand his connection with the story and glimpse an understanding of kirksey, then the veil of ignorance may be lifted a bit as I learn more about those I inhabit this planet with. In this way, through that story, I may learn something about the people around me. Therein lies the power of the miracle.

Originally posted by Badwater
That's not quite what is going on. With the miracles in the Bible, they are only significant insofar as their expression of God. Having a friend of a friend that could levitate higher than treetops - how does that reveal God (spirituality)? I would propose that it does not and is therefore not a miracle in Biblical context.

If all one is looking at with ...[text shortened]... learn something about the people around me. Therein lies the power of the miracle.

You says a lot of things I don't understand here...

Do you actually say that the story is more important than the event itself? Is it not interesting if the sotry is true or not? That you only find comfort in the point of the story?

So If I say something that "Yesterday, I prayed to god that he'd turn the moon into green cheese, and he did! I didn't actually see the moon turn green, so if it really happened or not I'm not soure, but I don't care, it's the significance of god turning the moon to green cheese that is important.", then it is spiritually correct?

Do you actually say that the story is more important than the event itself?

That's exactly what I'm saying. The perspective of how God relates to, and in and of, a Biblical miracle is the whole point of the miracle.

So If I say something that "Yesterday, I prayed to god that he'd turn the moon into green cheese, and he did!

Let's say the moon did turn to green cheese, understanding that you and I know that it didn't. I'm talking about a purely hypothetical point of reference. If the moon has been made to green cheese, is it a miracle? No.

The ancients had a different understanding of the nature of miracles and what they signify spiritually. It is not the all important God of Facts that is modern culture and living. To understand what is meant by a miracle, one has to step outside of their own self and try to understand what is being said to the reader of the time in the context of their existence in that time.

I turn to a Hindu story that is one of my favorites, because it explains the nature of a miracle far better than Western writings:

Once upon a time, in a holy forest, there lived a sage called
Mankanaka, who ate nothing but grass and the leaves of
plants. For many years, he lived on this pure and austere diet,
and his spiritual potency became very intense.

One day, as Mankanaka sat in front of his hut weaving a grass
mat, he happened to cut himself on a sharp blade of grass. He
saw that green sap, not blood, oozed from the cut! His amazement
knew no bounds. "Finally, I have gone beyond the human state,
and I have become as sacred and blameless as a plant," he thought.
A frenzy of joy overtook Mankanaka, and he began to laugh and dance.
His laughter shook all corners of the world like cosmic thunder, and the
power of his dance frove first the forest and then the whole world to
laugh and dance with him. As if enchanted, animals and trees, stones
and rivers, lakes and mountains fell into the rhythms of the sage's wild
dance.

The gods looked down and saw the danger that the earth was in.
Oceans were overflowing, and dust was rising from the earth as smoke
rises from a forest fire, darkening the skies. The gods ran to Shiva and
asked him to rescue the earth from annihilation.

Shiva took the form of a hermit. He went to Mankanaka, and stood still
beside him. Mankanaka calmed down enough to look at the silent,
motionless hermit. He recognized who the hermit really was from the
secret signs visable to seers, and he wondered why the Great God, the
Lord of Dancers, wasn't joining him in his dance.

"Why are you so happy?" Shiva asked. Mankanaka pointed to his
wound, which was still oozing vegetable sap, and said, "O Lord of Gods,
don't you see that I have become so sacred that I have no blood at all?
I am superhuman! I am celebrating my miracle!"
Shiva smiled, and then pressed a fingernail into his own thumb. While
Mankanaka looked on, ashes, as white as snow and fine and
luminescent as moonlight, flowed out from the thumb of the Great God,
Shiva Mahadeva. Their radiance bathed the forest and beyond in a
healing mist.
The sight of Shiva's vibhooti, his sacred ashes, purer than green sap
and everything else in the world, brought a sobering calmness to
Mankanaka. He prostrated himself at Shiva's feet, and the whole world
came to a standstill.

We have two amazing happenings here but only one is a miracle. Mankanaka's amazing event is not a miracle because it is done only by him and for him. In his praise for himself, his miracle becomes quite destructive. Enter Shiva's miracle - equally impressive, Shiva's miracle does not bask in self grandeur and look-at-how-great-I-am. It is not as quite as overtly impressive as Mankanaka's, either; it is just some fog, after all. However, it is a reflection of God, of the spiritual, in a way that Mankanaka's event is not. It heals instead of destroys, and is the event that is the miracle.

Originally posted by Badwater
[b]Do you actually say that the story is more important than the event itself?

That's exactly what I'm saying. The perspective of how God relates to, and in and of, a Biblical miracle is the whole point of the miracle.

So If I say something that "Yesterday, I prayed to god that he'd turn the moon into green cheese, and he did!

Let's say ...[text shortened]... not. It heals instead of destroys, and is the event that is the miracle.[/b]

Do I dare to extrapolate a bit?

If the bible is true or not doesn't matter, it is what it says that is important?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Do I dare to extrapolate a bit?

If the bible is true or not doesn't matter, it is what it says that is important?

That the Bible is not entirely factual does not matter; that's what I'm saying. The Bible is not entirely factual, you and I both know that. That does not mean it cannot be a moral guide or that it is void of spiritual truth(s) that are more than what is factual or not.

I think that if one takes the Bible at completely literal value then they get hung up in the debate of whether it is factual or not; regardless, in only adopting what is written as being literally true they miss out on a significant spiritual undercurrent in the writings. If one dismisses the entire Bible as being not factual because one is finding large parts that are not factual then they are denying themselves some universal spiritual truths in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The Bible is not entirely factual. It can't be. But given what I've already said, it doesn't do me personally any good to dismiss the Bible wholesale, for it was never meant to be a completely factual writing. It is a writing that continued an old oral tradition (in Judaism that oral tradition continues, btw) and my opinion is that if someone is going to get anything out of an ancient writing then one has to put themself in the time and place of the writer and reader and see what one comes up with. To remain rooted in 21st century thought, science, and culture robs the Bible of any significance it possesses. To try to twist the Bible so that all of it supposedly fits into the 21st century is equally wrong-minded. Neither will work.