1. Shetland Primary
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    15 Feb '06 18:142 edits
    This takes a while to read, but it's well worth it.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    "LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

    "Yes, sir."

    "So you believe in God?"

    "Absolutely."

    "Is God good?"

    "Sure! God's good."

    "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

    "Yes."

    "Are you good or evil?"

    "The Bible says I'm evil."

    The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"

    "Yes sir, I would."

    "So you're good...!"

    "I wouldn't say that."

    "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't."

    No answer.

    "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" No answer.

    The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

    "Er... Yes."

    "Is Satan good?"

    "No."

    "Where does Satan come from?"

    The student falters. "From... God..."

    "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

    "Yes, sir."

    "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

    "Yes."

    "Who created evil?"

    No answer.

    "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"

    The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

    "Who created them?"

    No answer.

    The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"

    No answer.

    The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.

    Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?"

    The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

    No answer.

    "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers,

    "Is God good?"

    No answer..

    "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

    The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

    The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen your Jesus?"

    "No, sir. I've never seen Him."

    "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

    "No, sir. I have not."

    "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

    No answer.

    "Answer me, please."

    "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

    "You're AFRAID... you haven't?"

    "No, sir."

    "Yet you still believe in him?"

    "...yes..."

    "That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

    The student doesn't answer.

    "Sit down, please."

    The Christian sits...Defeated. Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

    The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

    The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"

    "Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

    "Is there such a thing as cold?"

    "Yes, son, there's cold too."

    "No, sir, there isn't."

    The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that.

    "There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

    Silence.

    A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

    "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

    "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"

    "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

    "Yes..."

    "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

    Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

    "Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

    The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!"

    "Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears.

    "Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

    "You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and then here's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

    The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

    "Of course there is, now look..."

    "Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses.

    "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

    The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless. The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

    The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

    "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

    "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

    "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

    The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

    "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

    "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

    "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

    "I believe in what is - that's science!"

    "Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face spits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."

    "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.

    Continued...
  2. Shetland Primary
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    15 Feb '06 18:22
    The class is in uproar. The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"

    The professor wisely keeps silent. The Christian looks around the room.

    "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?"

    The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain...felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so.

    The Christian shakes his head sadly.

    "It appears no one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says the professor has no brain."

    The class is in chaos. The Christian sits...

    Because that is what a chair is for.

    http://www.pagetutor.com/jokebreak/141.html
  3. Standard memberWulebgr
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    15 Feb '06 18:27
    You presented the same story last year. Then, as now, it fails to resemble any actual conversations between real professors and real students. It is crass religious propaganda designed to mobilize the ignorant.

    I'm sorry that your faith is so weak that you must attempt to prop it up with utter nonsense.
  4. Shetland Primary
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    15 Feb '06 18:34
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    You presented the same story last year. Then, as now, it fails to resemble any actual conversations between real professors and real students. It is crass religious propaganda designed to mobilize the ignorant.

    I'm sorry that your faith is so weak that you must attempt to prop it up with utter nonsense.
    I suppose you are going to contribute something useful to this thread...

    Or am I wrong?
  5. Shetland Primary
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    15 Feb '06 18:47
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    You presented the same story last year. Then, as now, it fails to resemble any actual conversations between real professors and real students. It is crass religious propaganda designed to mobilize the ignorant.

    I'm sorry that your faith is so weak that you must attempt to prop it up with utter nonsense.
    It is crass religious propaganda designed to mobilize the ignorant.

    Are you agnostic?

    It is interesting to note that the Latin equivalent for the Greek word is "ignoramus."
  6. Subscriberno1marauder
    Humble and Kind
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    15 Feb '06 18:512 edits
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]It is crass religious propaganda designed to mobilize the ignorant.

    Are you agnostic?

    It is interesting to note that the Latin equivalent for the Greek word is "ignoramus."[/b]
    Please give us the Latin equivalent for the Greek word agnostos.

    And while you're at it, give us the Latin word meaning "ignoramus". According to my dictionary, the word "ignoramus" was derived from a character in a play written in 1615.
  7. Standard memberKnightWulfe
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    15 Feb '06 18:571 edit
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Please give us the Latin equivalent for the Greek word agnostos.

    And while you're at it, give us the Latin word meaning "ignoramus". According to my dictionary, the word "ignoramus" was derived from a character in a play written in 1615.
    What I find interesting is this:

    WORD HISTORY An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a–, meaning “without, not,” as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnōsis, “knowledge,” which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things”; hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics” a group of his fellow intellectuals—“ists,” as he called them—who had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,” Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

    Note the bold....
  8. Shetland Primary
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    15 Feb '06 19:04
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Please give us the Latin equivalent for the Greek word agnostos.

    And while you're at it, give us the Latin word meaning "ignoramus". According to my dictionary, the word "ignoramus" was derived from a character in a play written in 1615.
    Must be something like "Atheist"😀
  9. Subscriberno1marauder
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    15 Feb '06 19:07
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Must be something like "Atheist"😀
    In other words, you were lying or making things up as usual.
  10. Joined
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    15 Feb '06 19:10
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    You presented the same story last year. Then, as now, it fails to resemble any actual conversations between real professors and real students. It is crass religious propaganda designed to mobilize the ignorant.

    I'm sorry that your faith is so weak that you must attempt to prop it up with utter nonsense.
    This is indeed the very same story that I came across in these forums (at the time, I believe it was the "Debate" Forum, back when actual debate still existed in that forum...) about a year and a half ago. The dialogue that stemmed from this story afterwards only strengthened my already growing agnosticism and really made me re-think Christianity (as to whether, overall, it was to the detriment or benefit of society). I'm afraid (at least for me) your efforts are actually counter-productive to your own cause. Just giving you a heads-up.
  11. Shetland Primary
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    15 Feb '06 19:11
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    In other words, you were lying or making things up as usual.
    I am quoting Ray Comfort: "The professing atheist is what is commonly known as an "agnostic" - one who claims he "doesn't know" if God exists. It is interesting to note that the Latin equivalent for the Greek word is "ignoramus."

    http://www.christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/atheism.html#doesntexist

    Maybe I put it across the wrong way. Forgive me.😞
  12. Shetland Primary
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    15 Feb '06 19:21
    Originally posted by lioyank
    This is indeed the very same story that I came across in these forums (at the time, I believe it was the "Debate" Forum, back when actual debate still existed in that forum...) about a year and a half ago. The dialogue that stemmed from this story afterwards only strengthened my already growing agnosticism and really made me re-think Christianity (as to whet ...[text shortened]... ) your efforts are actually counter-productive to your own cause. Just giving you a heads-up.
    Take courage friend... One day you will find the truth, just keep searching with all your heart.
  13. Gangster Land
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    15 Feb '06 19:26
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I am quoting Ray Comfort: [b]"The professing atheist is what is commonly known as an "agnostic" - one who claims he "doesn't know" if God exists. It is interesting to note that the Latin equivalent for the Greek word is "ignoramus."

    http://www.christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/atheism.html#doesntexist

    Maybe I put it across the wrong way. Forgive me.😞[/b]
    dj, remember a few months ago we had a conversation about the most effective ways to share your faith? One of the things I suggested was to avoid the type of "Christian cliché" that this story exemplifies. You really need to understand that these kinds of things are not for "non-Christian" consumption they serve no purpose to the non-believer they are ONLY for Christians. I guess they make Christians feel better about being teased and ridiculed by some people.

    Look, I really don’t have a problem with these little fictitious stories; I think they are trite, simplistic and disingenuous but mostly harmless. I wonder though, what did you think would happen by posting it? Did you really believe it might change someone’s heart? Or are you feeling mad/sad/angry that some people don't seem to respect your faith and wanted to try to get back at them? If that is the case I'm sorry, nobody should be made to feel bad about their faith but we have discussed ways that you can avoid this in the past and posting this story was not one of them.

    If you want we can peruse some more ideas on how to tweak your reputation around here which would hopefully allow the community to recognize the considerable contribution I suspect you could make in these forums AND avoid the future posting of pointless propaganda.

    TheSkipper
  14. The sky
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    15 Feb '06 19:28
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I am quoting Ray Comfort: [b]"The professing atheist is what is commonly known as an "agnostic" - one who claims he "doesn't know" if God exists. It is interesting to note that the Latin equivalent for the Greek word is "ignoramus."

    http://www.christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/atheism.html#doesntexist

    Maybe I put it across the wrong way. Forgive me.😞[/b]
    "Ignoramus" means "we don't know". I don't know why this is especially interesting to note.
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    15 Feb '06 19:30
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    I am quoting Ray Comfort: [b]"The professing atheist is what is commonly known as an "agnostic" - one who claims he "doesn't know" if God exists. It is interesting to note that the Latin equivalent for the Greek word is "ignoramus."

    http://www.christiananswers.net/evangelism/beliefs/atheism.html#doesntexist

    Maybe I put it across the wrong way. Forgive me.😞[/b]
    Unsurprising that you "quote" someone without actually "quoting" them. Unsurprising that you simply take someone's word for something when they are completely wrong and an even cursory check of the facts shows they are wrong. Do you always believe anything these flimflam men say to you?
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