1. Et in Arcadia ego...
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    30 Sep '06 10:391 edit
    Debates as a prominent secularist, I am often struck by the tolerance of this ideology. If only more could think like me.

    That, well, religion (not to mention any other religion besides Christianity, mind, because I really want to complain about that) gave us all the evils in the world, did it not? What about the Spanish Inquisition? Those poor witches! And weren't those Crusaders badly behaved, and downright rude at times?

    But would it not be great if we secularists ruled the world? They could outlaw all religion, and we could be at peace with our fellow man, cue petals from an empty heaven drifting down on top of our heads, lots of pink bunny wabbits hopping merrily and candied apples for all.

    One little problem, though:

    How then do we account for the last century?

    The Third Reich did for up to six million Jews, and more than ten million Russians. In all 37 million civilians and 25 million military deaths were caused by the war which Hitler initiated. So that's an estimated loss of life of sixty-two million (62,000,000).

    Then Stalin did in about 6 - 8 million Ukrainian slavs in his own genocide, in Cambodia the urban population was decimated, in China the Tibetans culture was wiped out, and worldwide Communism claimed an estimated ninety-four million (94,000,000) lives.

    But wait now... this can't be right - both Nazism and Communism were secular ideologies.

    My candied apple just fell off its stick. And where have all my bunnies gone? :'(
  2. Joined
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    30 Sep '06 11:52
    Originally posted by sjeg
    Debates as a prominent secularist, I am often struck by the tolerance of this ideology. If only more could think like me.

    That, well, religion (not to mention any other religion besides Christianity, mind, because I really want to complain about that) gave us all the evils in the world, did it not? What about the Spanish Inquisition? Those poor witches! And ...[text shortened]... ogies.

    My candied apple just fell off its stick. And where have all my bunnies gone? :'(
    There must be some mistake. Humanists and Secularists are not about forcing their opinions on anyone.
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    30 Sep '06 13:542 edits
    Originally posted by jaywill
    There must be some mistake. Humanists and Secularists are not about forcing their opinions on anyone.
    LOL!!! Try telling that to the politicians of the country in which you reside. They MUST use secularism as the basis in which they govern or answer to their peers and or constituants as to why they are mixing church and state. Also, our children do not pray in school or allowed to show preference toward any particular religion over the other. By default they are then forced to embrace a secularist atmosphere via the absence of religion in their respective schools. There is no doubt about it, secularism rules and has ruled the modern world for some time now and is the ideology of preference for the "intellectually enlightened". It appears that secularism has the air of "neutrality" and is why it is chosen above other ideologies. In truth, however, nothing could be further from the truth. It is simply a judgement call as to which ideology is preferable and secularism has won first prize.
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    30 Sep '06 14:341 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    LOL!!! Try telling that to the politicians of the country in which you reside. They MUST use secularism as the basis in which they govern or answer to their peers and or constituants as to why they are mixing church and state. Also, our children do not pray in school or allowed to show preference toward any particular religion over the other. By default mply a judgement call as to which ideology is preferable and secularism has won first prize.
    Below humanism lays a sleeping Christainity manifested in humanist morals...That's why Derrida has called globalisation, 'globalatinisation'
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    30 Sep '06 14:571 edit
    Originally posted by Serendipity
    Below humanism lays a sleeping Christainity manifested in humanist morals...That's why Derrida has called globalisation, 'globalatinisation'
    If below humanism lays a sleeping Christianity then what is the mysterious entity between the two that seems to put them at odds with one another? Why are we prohibiting pray in schools and forcing the ten commandments to be dragged out of our court rooms?

    Also what about a sleeping Judism or a sleeping Buddahism? Why would he pick Christianity? Is Derrida implying that Christianity to be superior to all other religions?
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    30 Sep '06 15:00
    Perhaps we should coin the phrase secularist or humanist fundamentalist? It seems to me some are more dogmatic than others who are more level headed about their ideology.
  7. Standard memberDavid C
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    01 Oct '06 07:00
    Originally posted by sjeg
    My candied apple just fell off its stick. And where have all my bunnies gone? :'(
    "Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism...at least it's an etha." - W. Sobchak

    oh, and BTW...Hitler believed in the Jesus as Saviour schtick. Just to put a bookend on the sophistry.

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

    Enjoy!
  8. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    01 Oct '06 07:41
    Also, our children do not pray in school or allowed to show preference toward any particular religion over the other.
    This certainly isn't true. The teachers are not allowed to show preference. The students can do whatever they want religiously as long as it does not disturb the learning environment. Kids can certainly pray in schools--they are simply not forced to do so. Do you think there are provisions in place to expel students for proselytizing?
  9. Standard memberPalynka
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    01 Oct '06 08:47
    Originally posted by whodey
    LOL!!! Try telling that to the politicians of the country in which you reside. They MUST use secularism as the basis in which they govern or answer to their peers and or constituants as to why they are mixing church and state. Also, our children do not pray in school or allowed to show preference toward any particular religion over the other. By default ...[text shortened]... mply a judgement call as to which ideology is preferable and secularism has won first prize.
    My country has a laicist constitution and it doesn't stop it from having a treaty with the Vatican. Your premise that separation of the state and the church needs secularism is false.
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    01 Oct '06 11:09
    Originally posted by David C
    "Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism...at least it's an etha." - W. Sobchak

    oh, and BTW...Hitler believed in the Jesus as Saviour schtick. Just to put a bookend on the sophistry.

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

    Enjoy!
    Many people who has an agenda will dignify it by associating it with Jesus Christ.

    This is a statement on man's capacity to take what is right and morally splendid as Jesus and trying to bring their base purposes under that umbrella.

    So also Marxism pointed out with some apparent justification from the books of Acts that the Christians invented Communism.

    Many world views and grand ideologies have desired to "cash in" on Jesus, Hitler and Marx included, as opposite as they were.
  11. Standard membertelerion
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    01 Oct '06 14:17
    Originally posted by sjeg
    Debates as a prominent secularist, I am often struck by the tolerance of this ideology. If only more could think like me.

    That, well, religion (not to mention any other religion besides Christianity, mind, because I really want to complain about that) gave us all the evils in the world, did it not? What about the Spanish Inquisition? Those poor witches! And ...[text shortened]... ogies.

    My candied apple just fell off its stick. And where have all my bunnies gone? :'(
    Ho! Ho! Watch the strawman fall.
    Secularism outlawing religion? What a laugh!
    Nazism a secular philosophy? I bet those atheists were surprised when they hit the internment camps while their possessions were divided among their Protestant and Catholic neighbors. Silly them! Ha Ha.

    You do have one good point though. Simply aboloshing religion will not prevent repressive regimes from slaughtering its citizens. What that has to do with secularism though is unclear. But hey it's a strawman party. Don't let me be a downer. Carry on,!
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    01 Oct '06 14:51
    Originally posted by whodey
    If below humanism lays a sleeping Christianity then what is the mysterious entity between the two that seems to put them at odds with one another? Why are we prohibiting pray in schools and forcing the ten commandments to be dragged out of our court rooms?

    Also what about a sleeping Judism or a sleeping Buddahism? Why would he pick Christianity? Is Derrida implying that Christianity to be superior to all other religions?
    Humanism is a Western paradigm stemming from the enlightenment and infused with stoic morality which was borrowed by christian theology. read some pieces on the net about the new reconfiguration of cosmopolitanism!!
  13. Et in Arcadia ego...
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    01 Oct '06 14:52
    Originally posted by telerion
    Ho! Ho! Watch the strawman fall.
    Secularism outlawing religion? What a laugh!
    Nazism a secular philosophy? I bet those atheists were surprised when they hit the internment camps while their possessions were divided among their Protestant and Catholic neighbors. Silly them! Ha Ha.

    You do have one good point though. Simply aboloshing religion will ...[text shortened]... rism though is unclear. But hey it's a strawman party. Don't let me be a downer. Carry on,!
    Hey, we seem to have caught one on the line here.

    Secularity is the state of being free from religious or spiritual qualities, and here we are talking about the state, from which the secularist wishes to expunge the religious aspect, by definition.

    Please post links supporting this persecution of atheists in the Third Reich. This is something I am unfamiliar with.

    However, would you seriously dispute the fact that National Socialism is both secular and anti-religious? Please. Or communism.

    Refute the point with evidence or argumentation, if you can.
  14. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    02 Oct '06 08:51
    Originally posted by sjeg
    But wait now... this can't be right - both Nazism and Communism were secular ideologies.
    A lazy answer for you:

    "The Christianity promoted by the Nazis was labeled “positive Christianity,” a perspective that focused on the relationship between Christian promises of salvation and the German Volk as a special race of people. Point 24 of the NSDAP Party Program, created in 1920 and never rescinded, reads:

    “We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession. It fights the spirit of Jewish materialism within us and without us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our Volk can only take place from within, on the basis of the principle: public need comes before private greed.”

    [...]

    Germany after World War I was regarded as a godless, secular, materialistic republic which had betrayed all of Germany’s traditional morals, values, and religious beliefs. An important aspect of the Nazis’ appeal to the great mass of religiously conservative Germans was the fact that they said all the right things about the evils of atheism, materialism, greed, corruption, law and order, communism, and religious values. "


    http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/HolyReich.htm
  15. Et in Arcadia ego...
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    02 Oct '06 11:09
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    A lazy answer for you:

    "The Christianity promoted by the Nazis was labeled “positive Christianity,” a perspective that focused on the relationship between Christian promises of salvation and the German Volk as a special race of people. Point 24 of the NSDAP Party Program, created in 1920 and never rescinded, reads:

    “We demand freedom for all rel ...[text shortened]... mmunism, and religious values. "


    http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/HolyReich.htm
    Interesting post. Will get back to you.
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