19 Apr 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerWhat part of my posts was unclear to you? The Church was proposing denying Communion to pro-choice politicans merely because they opposed criminal laws banning abortion; these laws would apply to everybody, mostly non-RC members. By the same logic, politicians who opposed laws banning artificial contraception or divorce should also be denied communion. And note that this would be true even if the politician agreed with the Church's position that such behavior was sinful or immoral. Are you confusing the logical implications of this position with another position?
Err ... how did you get all that "Not forcing non-Catholics to follow RCC doctrine is a grave sin" business from my post? Or are you confusing me for someone else?
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by frogstomp
No ..its not at all about the church's teaching it's about the pope not knowing what kingdom he serves.
The church can teach anything it likes except that it has power to tell the faithful to enforce it's decrees on other people.
That is the core of the Church's attack on religious freedom.
Your garbage interpretation of ...[text shortened]... therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."
The last quote you gave is very essential to consider if you are contemplating life and death issues like abortion, euthanasia and assisted suicide.
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeBut not non "life and death" issues like aggressive war apparently.
The last quote you gave is very essential to consider if you are contemplating life and death issues like abortion, euthanasia and assisted suicide.
And kiddies, please compare and contrast Ivanhoe's position approving Catholic politicians being denied Holy Communion for opposing criminal laws against abortion with his threads regarding the Pope during the Nazi regime in Germany. The German Church never denied Communion to any Catholic who was a politician or otherwise served in the Nazi party although that ideology clearly supported genocide and aggressive war in violation of Church teachings. Care to comment on the dichtomy between these positions, Ivanhoe?
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeAnswer the question, Ivanhoe.
Huu ..... is that an issue at the moment ? I am very confident you will find an answer yourself to this matter. You are knowledgable enough regarding these issues.
You are agreeing that Pro-Choice RC politicians be denied Eucharist because they enable
the public to engage in what the Church believes is a 'grave sin.'
Let's make it easy:
What about those RC politicians who are 'Pro-Death Penalty?' Yes or no?
Those who are 'Pro-Contraception?' Yes or no?
Those who are 'Pro-Divorce and Remarry?' Yes or no?
Those who are 'Pro-War?' Yes or no?
These are all 'issues are the moment,' because all of these stances are in direct controversy
with the Doctrinal stances of the RC Church.
If the Church is only going to pick one of these issues as something to take some sort of stand
against, then it is not doing so for moral reasons, but political ones.
Nemesio
19 Apr 05
"When war threatens humanity's destiny, as it does today in Iraq, it is even more urgent for us to proclaim with a loud and decisive voice that peace is the only way to build a more just and caring society. Violence and arms can never solve human problems."
-- Pope condemns Bush's invasion of Iraq, March 22, 2003
No Catholic member of the Bush administration or Congress who supported the war in Iraq was denied Communion.
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by no1marauderWas that considered a statement of doctrine? If not, then I suppose the RCC considers supporting abortion laws a more clear-cut situation. It certainly kills more people each year.
"When war threatens humanity's destiny, as it does today in Iraq, it is even more urgent for us to proclaim with a loud and decisive voice that peace is the only way to build a more just and caring society. Violence and arms can never solve human problems."
-- Pope condemns Bush's invasion of Iraq, March 22, 2003
No Catholic member of the Bush administration or Congress who supported the war in Iraq was denied Communion.
Doctrinal integrity may take on more focus with the new pope.
19 Apr 05
1 edit
Originally posted by ColettiCatholic doctrine recognizes some wars as just. The Pope's condemnation of the Iraq war showed that the Church did not believe that war to be just. As Catholic doctrine holds that unjust wars are immoral, I'd say it was a pretty clear statement.
Was that considered a statement of doctrine? If not, then I suppose the RCC considers supporting abortion laws a more clear-cut situation. It certainly kills more people each year.
Doctrinal integrity may take on more focus with the new pope.
There's no such thing as "supporting abortion laws". The only abortion laws ever passed were those outlawing or restricting the practice and imposing criminal sanctions on those who have and/or perform abortions. You and the rest of the anti-abortionists continue to ignore the fact that opposing criminal laws against abortion which would be binding on ALL people need have nothing to do with one's personal beliefs on whether abortion is immoral and/or sinful. It's pretty obvious why you guys are doing this as the point is irrefutable.
Whether abortion "kills" "people" is a matter of personal religious belief, not a fit subject for the criminal code. There is no doubt that war kills people.
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by no1marauderWell then by your own standards killing left-handed-Twinkie-eaters would be a matter of personal belief. So if you believe that's OK, then who am I to object.
... Whether abortion "kills" "people" is a matter of personal religious belief, not a fit subject for the criminal code. There is no doubt that war kills people.
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by no1marauderI give! They don't support abortion laws - they support laws against laws against abortion. That makes it all better.
...There's no such thing as "supporting abortion laws". The only abortion laws ever passed were those outlawing or restricting the practice and imposing criminal sanctions on those who have and/or perform abortions. You and the rest of the anti-abortionists continue to ignore the fact that opposing criminal laws against abortion which would be bindin ...[text shortened]... l and/or sinful. It's pretty obvious why you guys are doing this as the point is irrefutable.
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by ColettiAgain, SLOWLY - there is no such thing as "laws against laws against abortion" for pro-choice politicians to support. If I'm wrong and you could cite a "law against law against abortion" that pro-choice politicians supported, I'd be interested in hearing it.
I give! They don't support abortion laws - they support laws against laws against abortion. That makes it all better.
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by no1marauderOhhh. So they are against laws against abortion. That does make it okay. I'm at peace now. Don't know why the RCC got so upset with these guys who say it's okay for people to kill other people. Since it's a personal decision... 🙂
Again, SLOWLY - there is no such thing as "laws against laws against abortion" for pro-choice politicians to support. If I'm wrong and you could cite a "law against law against abortion" that pro-choice politicians supported, I'd be interested in hearing it.
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by ColettiIt's a waste of time answering someone who is as narrow minded and dogmatic as you. Go burn someone at a stake, willya?
Ohhh. So they are against laws against abortion. That does make it okay. I'm at peace now. Don't know why the RCC got so upset with these guys who say it's okay for people to kill other people. Since it's a personal decision... 🙂
19 Apr 05
Originally posted by ColettiSpeech is a useless tool to use to instruct those who lack the cognitive abilities to grasp simple points. Opposition to criminal laws against abortion is not supporting the practice or saying it is not immoral or sinful; it is merely saying that in a pluralistic society a religious belief held by some should not be binding on others who do not share it to the point of putting people in prison. Please address this at some point rather than ranting about "killing people".
When I've made no1 speechless - my mission in life has been accomplished. Thank!