1. Donationkirksey957
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    18 Apr '05 21:26
    Originally posted by bbarr
    This would also be ruled out. Consider the following:

    "Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means."
    Including the priesthood?
  2. Donationbbarr
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    18 Apr '05 21:30
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    Including the priesthood?
    lol. No. The intention of the novitiate is not to prevent pregancy (I hope!). The passage above was intended to refer only to those acts the motivation for which was to prevent pregnancy.
  3. Felicific Forest
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    18 Apr '05 21:35
    Originally posted by bbarr
    This would also be ruled out. Consider the following:

    "Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means."

    Can you also explain us why, bbarr ?
  4. Donationkirksey957
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    18 Apr '05 21:37
    Originally posted by bbarr
    lol. No. The intention of the novitiate is not to prevent pregancy (I hope!). The passage above was intended to refer only to those acts the motivation for which was to prevent pregnancy.
    But surely celibacy is an "ends."
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    18 Apr '05 21:38
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    Can you also explain us why, bbarr ?
    thats an excellent question, Ivanhoe...
  6. Donationbbarr
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    18 Apr '05 21:58
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    Can you also explain us why, bbarr ?
    Sure, Ivanhoe. The document you site contains an expression of what is commonly called Natural Law theory (NL). NL traces it's origins back through Aquinas to Augustine and then to Aristotle, whose teleological approach to questions in ethics was adopted by these theologians. NL maintains, in short, that the natural world is normative. The RC takes the normativity of the natural world to obtain in virtue of God's will. He has imbued his creation with purpose, and the purpose of sexual congress is procreation. This is the meta-ethical foundation of the view.
  7. Felicific Forest
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    18 Apr '05 22:21
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Sure, Ivanhoe. The document you site contains an expression of what is commonly called Natural Law theory (NL). NL traces it's origins back through Aquinas to Augustine and then to Aristotle, whose teleological approach to questions in ethics was adopted by these theologians. NL maintains, in short, that the natural world is normative. The RC takes the nor ...[text shortened]... e purpose of sexual congress is procreation. This is the meta-ethical foundation of the view.

    .... but it is surely all right to use condoms, isn't it ?
  8. Donationbbarr
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    18 Apr '05 22:24
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    .... but it is surely all right to use condoms, isn't it ?
    Are you asking my opinion?
  9. Not Kansas
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    18 Apr '05 22:24
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    .... but it is surely all right to use condoms, isn't it ?
    If the purpose is to prevent disease ...
  10. Donationbbarr
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    18 Apr '05 22:26
    Originally posted by KneverKnight
    If the purpose is to prevent disease ...
    Not according to the RC. Abstinence would be the permissible course of action regarding the transmission of STDs.
  11. Meddling with things
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    18 Apr '05 22:27
    Originally posted by ivanhoe

    Then what happened is they co-opted all of the moral issues and called them political.

    When this debate started heating up, the point of view was something like this: "You keep your religion to yourself. You keep religious issues inside your religious community. Leave politics to us. That's our turf. All right? So you stick with the values stuff, the ...[text shortened]... rticle/0,,PTID4211|CHID104459|CIID328288,00.html?rating=5&SubmittedARate=yes&ipaddress=&ruserid=
    Why don't you get a grip. If you were in a one religion theocracy your attitude would make sense. Where there is plurality in belief then your stance in totally unreasonable. Your advocating a society run along the same lines as Saudi. Pfft
  12. Not Kansas
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    18 Apr '05 22:30
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Not according to the RC. Abstinence would be the permissible course of action regarding the transmission of STDs.
    Yeah, and no good poking tiny holes in a few condoms at random ...
  13. Felicific Forest
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    18 Apr '05 22:311 edit
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Sure, Ivanhoe. The document you site contains an expression of what is commonly called Natural Law theory (NL). NL traces it's origins back through Aquinas to Augustine and then to Aristotle, whose teleological approach to questions in ethi ...[text shortened]... s procreation. This is the meta-ethical foundation of the view.
    You also could have said it this way, BBarr:


    Observing the Natural Law

    11. The sexual activity, in which husband and wife are intimately and chastely united with one another, through which human life is transmitted, is, as the recent Council recalled, "noble and worthy.'' (11) It does not, moreover, cease to be legitimate even when, for reasons independent of their will, it is foreseen to be infertile. For its natural adaptation to the expression and strengthening of the union of husband and wife is not thereby suppressed. The fact is, as experience shows, that new life is not the result of each and every act of sexual intercourse. God has wisely ordered laws of nature and the incidence of fertility in such a way that successive births are already naturally spaced through the inherent operation of these laws. The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life. (12)


    Union and Procreation

    12. This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.

    The reason is that the fundamental nature of the marriage act, while uniting husband and wife in the closest intimacy, also renders them capable of generating new life—and this as a result of laws written into the actual nature of man and of woman. And if each of these essential qualities, the unitive and the procreative, is preserved, the use of marriage fully retains its sense of true mutual love and its ordination to the supreme responsibility of parenthood to which man is called. We believe that our contemporaries are particularly capable of seeing that this teaching is in harmony with human reason.


    Faithfulness to God's Design

    13. Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one's partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife. If they further reflect, they must also recognize that an act of mutual love which impairs the capacity to transmit life which God the Creator, through specific laws, has built into it, frustrates His design which constitutes the norm of marriage, and contradicts the will of the Author of life. Hence to use this divine gift while depriving it, even if only partially, of its meaning and purpose, is equally repugnant to the nature of man and of woman, and is consequently in opposition to the plan of God and His holy will. But to experience the gift of married love while respecting the laws of conception is to acknowledge that one is not the master of the sources of life but rather the minister of the design established by the Creator. Just as man does not have unlimited dominion over his body in general, so also, and with more particular reason, he has no such dominion over his specifically sexual faculties, for these are concerned by their very nature with the generation of life, of which God is the source. "Human life is sacred—all men must recognize that fact," Our predecessor Pope John XXIII recalled. "From its very inception it reveals the creating hand of God." (13)


    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

  14. Felicific Forest
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    18 Apr '05 22:32
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Are you asking my opinion?

    No, the Church's stance.
  15. London
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    18 Apr '05 22:33
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    You also could have said it this way, BBarr:


    Observing the Natural Law

    11. The sexual activity, in which husband and wife are intimately and chastely united with one another, through which human life is transmitted, is, as the recent Council recalled, "noble and worthy.'' (11) It does not, moreover, cease to be legitimate even when, for reasons i ...[text shortened]... e John XXIII recalled. "From its very inception it reveals the creating hand of God." (13)

    Reference?
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