06 Oct 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI once read a book by a theologian who citing Moses said, "when God calls you, your troubles are just beginning." So I started thinking about this statement and considered the horrible treatment given to the prophets, the suffering of Job, the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus, and the ordeals of the Apostle Paul, not to mention the persecution of Christians through the ages. I also thought about the suffering of the "chosen people."
Evaluate the probability that God exists.
Show your work by citing what bits of evidence and information you have considered and how they correspond to factors in your calcualtion.
I then looked at my own life and how difficult certain periods have been and still are. Ironically, I , like many people of faith through the ages, wonder "how long, O Lord, how long." So to get back to your question, I guess I would say God exists because suffering exists. Or perhaps God just simply called me.
06 Oct 06
Originally posted by kirksey957Should I put you down for 100%?
I once read a book by a theologian who citing Moses said, "when God calls you, your troubles are just beginning." So I started thinking about this statement and considered the horrible treatment given to the prophets, the suffering of Job, the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus, and the ordeals of the Apostle Paul, not to mention the persecution of Chris ...[text shortened]... ss I would say God exists because suffering exists. Or perhaps God just simply called me.
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesWell, if you’re talking about the God of “supernatural theism,” first you have to consider evidence for the supernatural category. Just because there may be things that transcend human cognitive abilities, does not mean that they are supernatural (by which I mean here “extra-natural” )—just that something about the natural order may not be accessible to human cognition.
Evaluate the probability that God exists.
Show your work by citing what bits of evidence and information you have considered and how they correspond to factors in your calcualtion.
I have yet to see such evidence (or an argument that necessitates the leap), and therefore do not (yet) admit the supernatural category at all. [That is why I call myself a nonaligned, nonsupernaturalist monist.] The cosmos we exist in (and of) may never cease to be mysterious; that does not require the admission of a supernatural category, even if one chooses to metaphysically speculate about the mystery.
If one does admit the supernatural category—I would argue that we have no access to knowledge of such, since our very cognitive capabilities are conditioned by our natural existence (time-space dimensionality, for example—what does it really mean to speak of “an infinite being,” for instance). Even if one admits that a supernatural being can communicate via “divine revelation,” the terms of that revelation must be in/of the natural realm in order for us to find any coherency at all—and thus, such revelation cannot really “reveal” the supernatural realm, but only (at best) “metaphorize” it in natural terms amenable to our cognition. Such metaphors are subject to wide interpretation (based on our cognitive limitations), any/all of which might be far off the mark.
So, my first question would be: How does one (can one) assign any probability to the existence of a supernatural category per se (as opposed to simply natural phenomena that transcend human cognition)? And, if one assumes a supernatural category, how can one assign any probabilities to possible characteristics of that category (e.g., a personal God)? I do not think it can be done.
One either decides that there is (or may be) a supernatural theos, or not, for whatever personal reasons (e.g., aesthetic), and proceeds from there, allowing that decision to guide their life. To one who frankly admits such a decision on that basis, I can only say: “May it be for you and others a path of blessing.”
Now I’m going to bed and do something reasonable, like reading a trashy novel...
06 Oct 06
Now I’m going to bed and do something reasonable, like reading a trashy novel...
That could be a problem right there. Your attitude is rebellious. You want someone to come and tickle your curiousity about God.
Maybe God does not like to waste His revelation on someone who has no intention to let God be a cause of any change in their life. You may be fooling yourself to think that the Ultimate Reality will come to tickle your curiosity.
I think anyone who would come forward to God must first have a willingness to have their life changed by God. There has to be a spiritual hunger for a better life.
The flippant and the rebellious should not expect that God will cheaply waste His revelation on them so easily.
The rebellious would say "I am already filled. I have need of nothing. I certainly am not in need of God" There is no spiritual hunger there. No one advances spiritually without a hunger.
"The hungry He has filled with good things, and the rich He has sent away empty" (Luke 1:53)
He imparts good things to those hungry for Him. The self satisfied He will send away empty.
06 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillThat could be a problem right there. Your attitude is rebellious. You want someone to come and tickle your curiousity about God.
[b]Now I’m going to bed and do something reasonable, like reading a trashy novel...
That could be a problem right there. Your attitude is rebellious. You want someone to come and tickle your curiousity about God.
Maybe God does not like to waste His revelation on someone who has no intention to let God be a cause of any change in their lif ...[text shortened]... He imparts good things to those hungry for Him. The self satisfied He will send away empty.[/b]
Don’t try to read my mind, jaywill. You don’t know my attitude or what I want—or anything about how wide-ranging my curiosity is, or how I live my life.
BTW, “trashy novel” was meant tongue-in-cheek: I just mean something less than good literature for a read before sleep...
06 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillWhat this boils down to is that only those who believe in god will believe in god. Sounds like a tautology to me.
[b]Now I’m going to bed and do something reasonable, like reading a trashy novel...
That could be a problem right there. Your attitude is rebellious. You want someone to come and tickle your curiousity about God.
Maybe God does not like to waste His revelation on someone who has no intention to let God be a cause of any change in their lif ...[text shortened]... He imparts good things to those hungry for Him. The self satisfied He will send away empty.[/b]
06 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillOkay, I didn’t want to leave on such a negative note, so—
[b]Now I’m going to bed and do something reasonable, like reading a trashy novel...
That could be a problem right there. Your attitude is rebellious. You want someone to come and tickle your curiousity about God.
Maybe God does not like to waste His revelation on someone who has no intention to let God be a cause of any change in their lif ...[text shortened]... He imparts good things to those hungry for Him. The self satisfied He will send away empty.[/b]
Read the last paragraph of my post (before the “trashy novel” comment), and ask yourself this question: “Am I trying to substitute certainty for faith?” KellyJay, for example, does not. Faith always and inescapably involves risk—that’s why it’s called the risk of faith, and a “leap of faith” (Kierkegaard).
Don’t belittle those who honestly disagree with you—they take their risks of faith, too. Some of us take full and absolute responsibility for our decisions, including decisions of belief in the face of uncertainty. Some of us, if we discover hidden motivations in ourselves, are dedicated to rooting them out. Some of us are committed to self-integrity—whether that leads to agreeable beliefs or not. Don’t assign to us motivations that you cannot know we have.
As for your own decision of faith: “May it be for you and others a path of blessing.”
Good night.
06 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillYet, according to Christian doctorine, he made me specifically this way and no other, with perfect foresight. It's HIS fault I cannot believe in him - he made me this way!
[b]Now I’m going to bed and do something reasonable, like reading a trashy novel...
That could be a problem right there. Your attitude is rebellious. You want someone to come and tickle your curiousity about God.
Maybe God does not like to waste His revelation on someone who has no intention to let God be a cause of any change in their lif ...[text shortened]... He imparts good things to those hungry for Him. The self satisfied He will send away empty.[/b]
06 Oct 06
Originally posted by vistesdSolid post.
Well, if you’re talking about the God of “supernatural theism,” first you have to consider evidence for the [b]supernatural category. Just because there may be things that transcend human cognitive abilities, does not mean that they are supernatural (by which I mean here “extra-natural” )—just that something about the natural order may not be ac ...[text shortened]... f blessing.”
Now I’m going to bed and do something reasonable, like reading a trashy novel...[/b]
06 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywill😵
[b]Now I’m going to bed and do something reasonable, like reading a trashy novel...
That could be a problem right there. Your attitude is rebellious. You want someone to come and tickle your curiousity about God.
Maybe God does not like to waste His revelation on someone who has no intention to let God be a cause of any change in their lif ...[text shortened]... He imparts good things to those hungry for Him. The self satisfied He will send away empty.[/b]
vistesd writes beautiful words of tolerance, and that's your response?
You've reached a new level of smugness and arrogance here.