Shroud of Turin News

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]Sunday, October 6, 2013
Shroud of Turin News, October 2013

John 20:6

6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen.

Originally posted by divegeester
John 20:6

6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, [b]separate from the linen.[/b]

What do you think this means?

And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself.

(John 20:5-7 NKJV)

Does this help?

Originally posted by RJHinds
What do you think this means?

[b]And he, stooping down and looking in, saw the linen cloths lying there; yet he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; and he saw the linen cloths lying there, and the handkerchief that had been around His head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded together in a place by itself.

(John 20:5-7 NKJV)

Does this help?[/b]

Yes, it reinforces my point that there were two pieces. Of course you can go on believing the Catholics if you like.

Originally posted by divegeester
Yes, it reinforces my point that there were two pieces. Of course you can go on believing the Catholics if you like.

Answers to some objections to the Shroud's authenticity:

Normally, the bodies would be washed, but not in certain circumstances related to the person’s death. According to the Mishnah, Jewish custom stated that if a person bled more than 1/4 log of blood after death (a log was equal to the amount needed to fill six eggs), then the body would not be washed and the blood would be buried with the victim. Jesus bled after His death (remember the spear in the side), thus He would have had mingled blood on His body (life blood mixed with blood that flowed after His death), so His body would not have been washed. Also, the hands were tied together by a linen cloth, as were the feet, and another thin linen cloth was wrapped from the top of the head around the bottom of the chin, presumably to hold the jaw shut (there may have been a few other cloths used to hold the body in place). This is perfectly consistent with John’s account of the linen cloths in the empty tomb.

http://midwestapologetics.org/blog/?p=946

Here is more:

THE SHROUD OF TURIN AND ITS SIGNIFICANCE FOR BIBLICAL STUDIES

In, connection with the history of the shroud it might be mentioned that the scientific investigation revealed no paint, dye, powder or any other foreign substance in the image area of the shroud that could account for the image itself. After repeated tests the shroud has shown itself to be an authentic archaeological artifact.

The basic facts of Jesus' burial are recorded in the gospels, although exact specifics are rarely mentioned, as will be noted below. One interesting point concerns the gospel statements that Jesus' burial was not completed before the sabbath. Therefore the women were returning Sunday morning expecting to complete the anointing of Jesus' body with spices (Luke 23:54-24:1; Mark 16:1).

In comparing the NT accounts with the shroud, the most mentioned question is probably that which concerns the napkin. It is sometimes said that this handkerchief was opened and laid flat over the face and that therefore any image should be on the napkin and not on the main burial cloth. But careful investigation into the NT and other early Jewish literature clearly reveals that this napkin was folded up and tied around the head in order to keep the jaw closed during the onslaught of rigor mortis.

This practice is reported in both the Mishna (o. Sabb. 23.5) and the Code of Jewish Law in a section entitled "Laws of Mourning," which is a record of early Jewish burial practices. More important for the evangelical is that the gospels affirm the same. In John 11:44 the napkin is said to have been placed "around" the head (perideö ). John 20:7 further explains that this cloth was "wrapped" or "rolled" up (entylissö ). The combination of being wrapped up and of being placed around the head clearly supports the position of the napkin explicitly taught in both the Mishna and the Code of Jewish Law. Interestingly enough, the man buried in the shroud also had just such a cloth tied around his jaw. Not only is there no contradication here but we find, rather, an unexpected verification of the method depicted on the shroud.

Another frequent issue involves the fact that the man buried in the shroud was not washed before burial, while such was a common Jewish custom (Acts 9:37). Although none of the gospels assert that Jesus'' body was washed, it is often assumed that it was since he was buried according to Jewish tradition (John 19:40).

The Code of Jewish Law sheds some light on this matter, in that we are told that dead bodies were normally washed before burial. However, exceptions include a person who was killed by the government. In such an instance the blood was to remain on the body to be a payment for a person's acts against the state.12 In other words, if Jesus was buried according to Jewish customs, as just mentioned (John 19:40), he could not have been washed. Therefore the tradition of the times required the exact opposite of what some believe is implied. Again, Scripture also provides added insight in that Jesus' burial was incomplete, and one of the purposes of spices (such as the women brought on Sunday morning) was to wash and cleanse the body. Strangely enough, Jewish tradition allowed washing the body on the sabbath, but only if the body was not moved in the process (6. Sabb. 23.5). Such is a very effective prohibition against any washing on the sabbath.


Therefore especially in light of the fact that the gospels never state that Jesus' body was washed, we have no contradiction here either. Again there is even an unexpected corroboration. The Code of Jewish Law also states that the one killed should be buried in a single, plain sheet of linen.

Another question concerns whether Jesus was buried in one or more strips of linen. This is a difficult matter in that the gospels speak of these graveclothes in both the singular and the plural. Scientific testing indicates that the man buried in the shroud was, in fact, buried in at least four strips of linen. In addition to the major cloth known as the shroud, he was also wrapped around the head with a napkin as well as having his wrists and ankles tied together.

http://www.garyhabermas.com/articles/J_Evangelical_Theological_Soc/Habermas_JETS_Shroud-of-Turin-and-significance.htm

What about the face cloth or napkin around the head?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/kathyschiffer/2013/02/the-sudarium-of-oviedo-the-other-shroud-of-jesus/

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]Answers to some objections to the Shroud's authenticity:

You expect me to read through all your lame internet propaganda when you refuse to accept validity of basic scripture?

Originally posted by divegeester
You expect me to read through all your lame internet propaganda when you refuse to accept validity of basic scripture?

I accept the validity of basic scripture. However, you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions. That is your choice. I was only trying to educate you on the facts.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I accept the validity of basic scripture. However, you are jumping to unwarranted conclusions. That is your choice. I was only trying to educate you on the facts.

The bible states that the burial cloth was in two parts, one for the body and another for the head, do you deny this?

Originally posted by divegeester
The bible states that the burial cloth was in two parts, one for the body and another for the head, do you deny this?

No.

SOLID PROOF TURIN SHROUD IS 1ST CENTURY!

YouTube

Originally posted by RJHinds
No.

SOLID PROOF TURIN SHROUD IS 1ST CENTURY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2T2rn-i1X8

If you don't deny that the burial cloth is in two parts, then why do you keep on posting all this guff about the catholic shroud?

Originally posted by divegeester
If you don't deny that the burial cloth is in two parts, then why do you keep on posting all this guff about the catholic shroud?

The Shroud or Turin was not the property of the Roman Catholic Church until 1983. The Sudarium of Oviedo, or Shroud of Oviedo, Spain is the smaller table napkin that was wrapped around the head of Jesus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo

Originally posted by Suzianne
What is your point, here? Who's to say the Turin shroud is not one of the two pieces?

Are you only trying to stick a pin into the catholics?

My point is that RJHinds is like a crazed dog barking up the wrong tree.