Simple Truth of Christ

Originally posted by jaywill
..How much time did the thief on the cross beside Jesus have to walk in Christ and obey His commandments ..

Very simple question, and a very simple answer.

How much time did the thief on the cross have to obey Christ ?
As long as the thief on the cross had life.

Same with you .. Jaywill. As long as you have life.

Same with me. As long as I have life.

ALL people. As long as they have life in their body they are REQUIRED, REQUIRED .. MUST .. THERE IS NO OPTION BUT ... TO DO THE WILL OF CHRIST, AND FOLLOW ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS.

Its not .. "the Christian should follow Christ." There is no should follow Christ in the Bible like you claim. You have to. Otherwise salvation is lost.

Christ will judge who is following and who is just hypocritically claiming to follow him with their mouth.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Very simple question, and a very simple answer.

How much time did the thief on the cross have to obey Christ ?
As long as the thief on the cross had life.

Same with you .. Jaywill. As long as you have life.

Same with me. As long as I have life.

ALL people. As long as they have life in their body they are REQUIRED, REQUIRED .. MUST .. THERE IS NO judge who is following and who is just hypocritically claiming to follow him with their mouth.

Wrong.

Faith PLUS nothing leads to the Gift of eternal redemption and receives Christ as Savior.

Not Faith plus baptism.
Not Faith plus your regret.
Not Faith plus your good works.
Not Faith plus your repentance.
Not Faith plus keeping His commandments.
Not Faith plus tarrying for the Holy Spirit.
Not Faith plus speaking in tongues.
Not even Faith plus confessing your sins.

Man always attempts to ADD something to faith.

Notice above I do not say any of these things are not important.
In eternal redemption man is saved by believing into Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I know Christians would like to believe that all Christians have the Holy Spirit in them, but there is just no Biblical support for that.

What you feel inside you is not necessarily the Holy Spirit and is has nothing to do with what Christ said. Here is what he said :

[i]John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue ...[text shortened]... tinue in the commandments of Christ, is a lifetime of the works which Christ commanded us to do.

To continue in the commandments of Christ, is a lifetime of the works which Christ commanded us to do. ----------Rajk999

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I wouldn't particularly disagree with much of what you say. However , I would ask you to consider HOW a person follows the commandments of Christ. I thought the Bible was fairly clear in that it tells us that we obey God via the grace of the Holy Spirit (ie we are empowered to serve him). Therefore , we need God's help to follow Christ - yes? If this is so then one must receive the Holy Spirit first in order to follow him. But if we think we must follow him IN ORDER to receive the Spirit then we have got it the wrong way around.

Do you think you can serve God without his help?

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]My evidence would be the Holy Spirit.

That is not evidence. I asked for some evidential reasons or considerations, in virtue of which the proposition that God exists is more plausible. "The Holy Spirit" does not qualify.

Your argument here is tremendously bad. You basically claim that there are experiences in my life (such as the experienc ...[text shortened]... ually pretty easy to explain feelings of love within an evolutionary explanatory framework.[/b]

First of all I would accept that feelings of love can be produce via evolutionary natural urges. Romantic love (eros) is not the same as the love of God (agape).

I am also not suggesting that the Christians experience of the Holy Spirit is merely based on nebulus experiences that are hard to pin down. I have had some very specific and tangible experiences of the Holy Spirit where I was left in little doubt I was standing in the presence of God. Many Christians will testify to these experiences. The problem is (and you will hate me for saying this) that at the moment you cannot see Him or comprehend what we are talking about because it has not yet been revealed to you. I don't mean to offend you , I'm just telling you the truth.

I am simply trying to give you a little hint as to who the Holy Spirit is. He's there in your life , it's just at the moment you are resisting Him. It's as Jesus said " The world neither knows Him or sees Him"

I'm not expecting it to make a great deal of sense because at the moment you are too caught up in your head to see that God is not a sudoku puzzle that you have to figure out. He's a knowable being who is present with us. We could spend an eternity arguing intellectually and you would never know God even if I won the argument - because God is not a puzzle he is a living presence.

Let me put it this way. If I wanted you to believe that Aliens were visiting us , I could come up with all sorts of "arguments" to try and make my point. But what better way could there be than you actually meeting an Alien friend of mine? Similarly , the most convincing evidence there could be for God is to actually meet Him. The incredible thing is that we can! This is why I say that the Holy Spirit is evidence.

I understand this will sound crazy to you. It did to me once. Like you I was once so stuck in my head that I couldn't see. I took me the best part of 25 years of struggling , wrestling with it , trying to figure it out etc etc before I finally stop fighting with God and surrendered to Him.

Originally posted by buckky
God can be experienced through all religions not just Christianity . That is the simple truth .

I agree. Jesus is present amongst other religions and amongst all people. The Holy Spirit is present with men , and not just in churches.

Originally posted by jaywill
.. Faith PLUS nothing .

You seem to be ignoring the teachings of Christ pertaining to good works.

James, John, Peter, and Paul .. all said that faith alone is NOTHING. Its DEAD. If you claim to know Christ and dont follow his commandments YOU ARE A LIAR.

James said Faith without works is DEAD.

John said : 1 John 2:3-5 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Paul said : 1 Cor 13:2 ... and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing...

How did you arrive at that list, I can only guess that its mans corruption of the true Bible teachings.

LIAR ! NOTHING! DEAD !
Do these sound like terms that are acceptable to Christ ?
Are you thinking Jaywill ?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Its always funny how often theists present as 'evidence' some hypothetical future situation in which the other person will come to believe as they do.

Not quite , I'm simply pointing out that in a funny way you already know God is there in your life , it's just that at the moment He seems far off because you are not tuned in to Him.

If you sincerely ask Him with all your heart to reveal himself to you he will.

Originally posted by knightmeister
To continue in the commandments of Christ, is a lifetime of the works which Christ commanded us to do. ----------Rajk999

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I wouldn't particularly disagree with much of what you say. However , I would ask you to consider HOW a person follows the commandments o ...[text shortened]... hen we have got it the wrong way around.

Do you think you can serve God without his help?

Do you have a 'fairly clear' reference to support your statement?
Did the Good Samaritan have the grace of the Holy Spirit?
Please provide some CLEAR references.

Read Romans 2: 9-15. .. There are many who are under NO LAW .. ie neither the Law of Moses or the Law of Christ who are capable of doing good works. The ability to know good from evil and right from wrong is something we inherited from Adam, after he ate the forbidden fruit. Just like we inherited sin in the flesh. Our conscience is our guide. Every son of Adam has the ability to do good works.

Please dont quote me places where those with Holy Spirit Gifts did GREATER WORKS. Point me to a passage which says that we need the Holy Spirit to do good works.
Thanks.

Originally posted by knightmeister
First of all I would accept that feelings of love can be produce via evolutionary natural urges. Romantic love (eros) is not the same as the love of God (agape).

I am also not suggesting that the Christians experience of the Holy Spirit is merely based on nebulus experiences that are hard to pin down. I have had some very specific and tangible expe igure it out etc etc before I finally stop fighting with God and surrendered to Him.

First of all I would accept that feelings of love can be produce via evolutionary natural urges. Romantic love (eros) is not the same as the love of God (agape).

I realize that 'agape' has been co-opted by god botherers, although there is no necessary religous connotation to the term. But as you should know (maybe you are just playing coy here), my claim was not specific only to eros. My claim was in regards to the full taxonomy of love experienced by humans (including all of eros, philia, agape, storge, however you want to break it down). The fact is -- and you would know this if you bothered to do some genuine research into the topic -- that all of the love types are easily explainable within evolutionary explanatory framework.

The problem is (and you will hate me for saying this) that at the moment you cannot see Him or comprehend what we are talking about because it has not yet been revealed to you. I don't mean to offend you , I'm just telling you the truth.

No, I think the problem is that you suck at witnessing. I would venture to say that (in regards to your offerings unto critical atheists who have studied the topic in some depth) your tack is, if anything on average, dissuasive. You do yourself and your faith a disservice with these offerings, if you want my opinion. As we have been over ad nauseam on these boards, the proper tack in this setting would be the offering of actual evidential (epistemic) reasons that bear on the truth/falsity of the proposition that God exists.

I understand this will sound crazy to you. It did to me once. Like you I was once so stuck in my head that I couldn't see.

I can see just fine. There is nothing crazy going on here as far as I can tell. It's the same thing that often goes on in our discussions: you suck at witnessing and prattle on and on with question-begging offerings; whenever I provide counter-argument or just point out that you are failing to provide any actual epistemic reasons, you retort that I over-intellectualize everything (sorry it is so taxing for you to use your supposedly God-given cognitive faculties); you often throw in some smugness for good measure by presuming to tell me that I do not have the proper conative attitudes or appreciations for your grand insights, etc. That's how it always goes with you. That's been your MO for quite a while. Oh well, some things do not change. I am glad to see you back, though, for what it's worth.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I have had some very specific and tangible experiences of the Holy Spirit where I was left in little doubt I was standing in the presence of God. Many Christians will testify to these experiences.

I haven't had any such experiences. I remember sitting in church surrounded by people with their hands lifted and eyes closed, singing along with the songs in a worshipful state. I never got to that place. It always seemed a bit strange to me to watch it. I was a firm believer in God, too. I had accepted Jesus as my savior.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You seem to be ignoring the teachings of Christ pertaining to good works.

James, John, Peter, and Paul .. all said that faith alone is NOTHING. Its DEAD. If you claim to know Christ and dont follow his commandments YOU ARE A LIAR.

James said Faith without works is DEAD.

John said : [i]1 John 2:3-5 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep ...[text shortened]... ! DEAD !
Do these sound like terms that are acceptable to Christ ?
Are you thinking Jaywill ?

You seem to be ignoring the teachings of Christ pertaining to good works.

[/i]

I am not ignoring any other teachings of Christ. I know them better than you do.

James, John, Peter, and Paul .. all said that faith alone is NOTHING. Its DEAD.

If you're teaching faith without works is dead therefore we go back to the law keeping of the Law of Moses for eternal reconciliation I reject that.

So it depends on what you mean. Paul fought you down centries ago in the churches in Galatia -

"This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of the law or out of the hearing of faith?

Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh ?" (Galatians 3:2,3)

We Christians received the Holy Spirit out of the hearing of faith.

If you claim to know Christ and dont follow his commandments YOU ARE A LIAR.

The passage actually says "He who says, I know Him, and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in this one; But whoever keeps His word, truly in this one the love of God has been perfected. In this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought to himself also walk even as He walked." (1 John 2:4-6)

This is not about not being eternally saved. This is about walking as those who are eternally saved OUGHT to walk.

This is not about being not saved verses being perfect. It is about being saved and being "PERFECTED". It is not about UNSAVED verses being PERFECT. It is about SAVED and not PERFECTED verses SAVED and BEING PERFECTED.

He who is a believer and loves the brothers little does not know the Lord. But the Lord may know him. "The Lord knows those who are His and let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness."

He who is a believer and loves the brothers some is being perfected.
When his love deepens he is being more perfected.
When his love deepens again he is even more perfected.
This is the process of the growth of the divine life.

The believers are in the PROCESS of being perfected -

"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may believe that you have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:23)

The growth of the divine life within the saved and the building up of them together in love is their being in the ongoing process of PERFECTED.

James said Faith without works is DEAD.

If you mean that since faith without works is dead THEREFORE we should return to the Law of Moses and Old Testament Law keeping in order to receive eternal redemption then you are wrong.

John said : 1 John 2:3-5 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

This is about our knowing Him and not about our being eternally redeemed.
This is about our knowing Him and not about are not being born of God.

I know Him. As He grows in me I know Him in a deeper way. Today I can say in such a detail I really did not know the Lord Jesus until recently though I knew Him. The knowing of Him deepens. Just as the being perfected in love for the Christian brothers deepens.

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

This is not the truth is not in his spirit. This is the truth is not in his soul.

His spirit is regenerated and born again. But as to his soul - his mind and emotion and will, he is still untransformed. He needs regeneration for eternal life and eternal redemption. He needs transformation in the soul for a deepening knowing of the Lord in his soul.

This verse is about transformation not being born again.

Paul said : 1 Cor 13:2 ... and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing...

It says that he is nothing. It does not say that he is not saved. And Paul is talking about the most acceptable way to serve the Lord. That is with love.

He is not talking about not loving will cause a person to perish forever because he is not redeemed.

How did you arrive at that list, I can only guess that its mans corruption of the true Bible teachings.

I arrived at this list from a very good book by Watchman Nee called The Gospel of God in Two Volumes.

And it covers the matter of the Christian responsibility much better than you do. So it is a well rounded and well balanced approach to the Christian Gospel in two volumes. It is not ONLY about that list. That list is a part of just ONE of many chapters.

I also derived much of it from my own experience.

Originally posted by knightmeister
First of all I would accept that feelings of love can be produce via evolutionary natural urges. Romantic love (eros) is not the same as the love of God (agape).

I am also not suggesting that the Christians experience of the Holy Spirit is merely based on nebulus experiences that are hard to pin down. I have had some very specific and tangible expe ...[text shortened]... igure it out etc etc before I finally stop fighting with God and surrendered to Him.

Knightmiester,

I thought your paragraphs to the poster were very well put.
Don't be discouraged by his rejection.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Not quite , I'm simply pointing out that in a funny way you already know God is there in your life , it's just that at the moment He seems far off because you are not tuned in to Him.

That 'way' is so funny its not even true. I do not 'already know' God is there in my life and I don't believe that I ever will. He doesn't seem 'far off' he seems not to exist. You are attempting to present as evidence something that isn't there and trying to pass it off by claiming that I will only know it in the future, or I am too blind to see it now etc. Sorry, but that does not meet any conceivable standard of evidence. I could just as easily say "you know in your heart of hearts that God does not exist and some day you will come to recognise it" this is evidence that God doesn't exist". See?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I am also not suggesting that the Christians experience of the Holy Spirit is merely based on nebulus experiences that are hard to pin down. I have had some very specific and tangible experiences of the Holy Spirit where I was left in little doubt I was standing in the presence of God. Many Christians will testify to these experiences. The problem is ( ...[text shortened]... s not yet been revealed to you. I don't mean to offend you , I'm just telling you the truth.

But at the end of the day, you have nothing. If you cannot convincingly explain the evidence you have to others, then how do you trust it yourself? It is not just Christians that testify to conviction, thus conviction is clearly not reliable. And even Christians can get their convictions wrong. Many Christians have told me how they are convinced that the world will end in the next few years (that was over 10 years ago), or that they are convinced that I will become Christian (as you said earlier) yet these convictions never pan out in reality.

Originally posted by jaywill
.. book by Watchman Nee called [b]The Gospel of God in Two Volumes.

And it covers the matter of the Christian responsibility much better than you do. ...[/b]

So God sent his son Jesus Christ to preach and tell you what you have to do.
Christ sent the Apostles to preach. And you rather listen to some moron called Watchman Nee ? Incredible !!

I never told you any opinion of mine. I have no opinion on what is required for salvation.
What I do know is what Christ and all the Apostles said.