1. Joined
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    04 Apr '11 01:23
    As far as I can tell no one can imagine or believes that 'nothing' exists.

    Everything that exists exists in some form. A rock, a blade of grass, the invisible air. It is said that all matter may have been confined to a very small area billions of years ago and 'exploded' into what is now the known universe. I believe that that is entirely possible.

    Rather than getting into a debate about how organic life began here on earth, I would like to discuss how energy is in existence. It it said that the energy which makes up all things in existence has always existed. That could be, but it is only a guess because no one knows for certain.

    So, what is there to discuss or debate? Plenty!

    It seems to me that energy could not have always existed, that it has a creator.

    I probably believe that because I believe what it says in the Bible. "In the beginning God created..."


    I am obviously biased. So therefore I submit this question to anyone capable of answering it.

    How is it that energy could not always have existed?
  2. Standard membermenace71
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    04 Apr '11 03:08
    Everything that now exist (If we believe that model) began at a finite point or singularity. Energy matter time and Space. So I think the harder thing for some to comprehend is absolute nothing. Nothing is absolute. No time No space no matter Nothing. However if we believe in (a) God that started this all then something or someone we can say existed before this. Now I think a rational mind should have trouble with the concept of something coming from nothing. Remember Nothing is absolute. So how can something come from nothing?


    Manny
  3. Joined
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    04 Apr '11 05:25
    Originally posted by josephw
    As far as I can tell no one can imagine or believes that 'nothing' exists.

    Everything that exists exists in some form. A rock, a blade of grass, the invisible air. It is said that all matter may have been confined to a very small area billions of years ago and 'exploded' into what is now the known universe. I believe that that is entirely possible.

    Rat ...[text shortened]... ne capable of answering it.

    [b]How is it that energy could not always have existed?
    [/b]
    I hope that you do not take the absence of a posted satisfactory alternative to some answer you have in mind, to be a justification of the answer you have in mind. Doing so would be a basic error of argumentation, called the ad ingorantiam error.
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    04 Apr '11 05:39
    Originally posted by josephw
    As far as I can tell no one can imagine or believes that 'nothing' exists.

    Everything that exists exists in some form. A rock, a blade of grass, the invisible air. It is said that all matter may have been confined to a very small area billions of years ago and 'exploded' into what is now the known universe. I believe that that is entirely possible.

    Rat ...[text shortened]... ne capable of answering it.

    [b]How is it that energy could not always have existed?
    [/b]
    You are correct that energy has awlays existed in one form or another. Otherwise there would be no such thing as eternity.
    The infinite (or as close to infinity as possible) model of the universe is the only one I can entertain. Especially when it comes to time and Space.
    As for the christian "God" , I think you need to work out some kinks before you start realizing that "He" is not separate from "His" creation
  5. Joined
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    04 Apr '11 05:55
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    You are correct that energy has awlays existed in one form or another. Otherwise there would be no such thing as eternity.
    The infinite (or as close to infinity as possible) model of the universe is the only one I can entertain. Especially when it comes to time and Space.
    As for the christian "God" , I think you need to work out some kinks before you start realizing that "He" is not separate from "His" creation
    If anything has always existed, how did it ever get to be now?

    Sorry for the clumsy wording, I hope you get the point: If there is an unlimited amount of time before the present moment, the present moment never comes about.

    It might be better to say that as long as there has been time, there has been energy. And of course there was no "before there was time."
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    04 Apr '11 06:08
    Originally posted by JS357
    If anything has always existed, how did it ever get to be now?

    Sorry for the clumsy wording, I hope you get the point: If there is an unlimited amount of time before the present moment, the present moment never comes about.

    It might be better to say that as long as there has been time, there has been energy. And of course there was no "before there was time."
    Time is an act of measurement-it is an illusion, albeit a persistent one. Upon transformation our current understanding of time (which is illusory) collapses into a new space and space opens up into a new "Time"

    Other than that the universe is paradoxical in nature, hence we can have a light that is discrete or continous, we can have time and eternity.

    Sorry for the clumsy wording, also. Feel free to try to correct it (yours or mine or both 🙂 )
  7. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    04 Apr '11 06:11
    Originally posted by JS357
    If anything has always existed, how did it ever get to be now?

    Sorry for the clumsy wording, I hope you get the point: If there is an unlimited amount of time before the present moment, the present moment never comes about.

    It might be better to say that as long as there has been time, there has been energy. And of course there was no "before there was time."
    Energy is never destroyed, just changed into some other form of energy, therefor my only conclusion can be that energy has always existed in one form or another.



    Sometimes I think that the planets are electrons and the sun is a proton and our Sun system is just like a big atom.
    (Well we know thats not true because some of the measurements are out of proportion, but you get the idea)
  8. Joined
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    04 Apr '11 06:37
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Energy is never destroyed, just changed into some other form of energy, therefor my only conclusion can be that energy has always existed in one form or another.



    Sometimes I think that the planets are electrons and the sun is a proton and our Sun system is just like a big atom.
    (Well we know thats not true because some of the measurements are out of proportion, but you get the idea)
    It interesting to speculate on the idea that the galaxy we are in is a small piece of a larger organism. And that the current illusory situation will be displaced by another, as if to awaken from a dream into another one. It might only mean that I have too much time on my hands.🙂
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    04 Apr '11 06:45
    universe is a paradox, don't try to definitively explain it and it will be explained... or will it...
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    04 Apr '11 08:18
    Originally posted by daisychainsaw
    universe is a paradox, don't try to definitively explain it and it will be explained... or will it...
    But how can it be explained if we dont have the faculties developped to understand the explanation?
    Methinks it can only be explained in metaphor and insight and stuff like that.
    True knowledge of the Divine cannot be explained only hinted at.
    But it is simple.
  11. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    04 Apr '11 08:22
    Originally posted by JS357
    It interesting to speculate on the idea that the galaxy we are in is a small piece of a larger organism. And that the current illusory situation will be displaced by another, as if to awaken from a dream into another one. It might only mean that I have too much time on my hands.🙂
    I believe that sounds a bit like the Gaia principle.
    you heard of that one?

    I would hope to awaken out of this dream into "now reality", which is not another dream,but the actual reality from whence we came and to where we shall return.

    (To say that we are a small piece of a larger organism is just a metaphor for a phenomenom that can only be hinted in metaphors)
  12. Standard membermenace71
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    05 Apr '11 05:18
    My understanding was that at the point of the BB everything came to be. Before that there was nothing or at least we can't know only speculate. So even energy had it's beginning. Time and space are connected. As energy and matter


    Manny
  13. Joined
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    05 Apr '11 09:10
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    But how can it be explained if we dont have the faculties developped to understand the explanation?
    Methinks it can only be explained in metaphor and insight and stuff like that.
    True knowledge of the Divine cannot be explained only hinted at.
    But it is simple.
    thats what i said... right?
  14. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    05 Apr '11 21:05
    Originally posted by daisychainsaw
    thats what i said... right?
    Not in the same words 😛
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