"Since no one except God and the angels..."

"Since no one except God and the angels..."

Since no one except God and the angels were present at creation (Job 38:4-7) all views on the origin of the universe and life must be based ultimately on faith rather than direct observation. Faith is perception of reality based on the authority and/or veracity of God or someone else. Either we express faith in the Word of God the Creator or we express faith in man's speculative theories that exclude God. Either way we exercise faith. God Speaks to Job. Chapter 38...

1 "Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2 “Who is this that darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 “Now gird up your loins like a man,
And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 “On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 “Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
9 When I made a cloud its garment
And thick darkness its swaddling band,
10 And I placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
11 And I said, ‘Thus far you shall come, but no farther;
And here shall your proud waves stop’?"

"The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands." Psalm 19:1 "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made so that they [unbelievers] are without excuse." Romans 1:20 (1 of 2)

God’s Mighty Power

12 “Have you ever in your life commanded the morning,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 “It is changed like clay under the seal;
And they stand forth like a garment.
15 “From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the uplifted arm is broken.

16 “Have you entered into the springs of the sea
Or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 “Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
Or have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 “Have you understood the expanse of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.

19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory
And that you may discern the paths to its home?
21 “You know, for you were born then,
And the number of your days is great!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?
24 “Where is the way that the light is divided,
Or the east wind scattered on the earth?

25 “Who has cleft a channel for the flood,
Or a way for the thunderbolt,
26 To bring rain on a land without people,
On a desert without a man in it,
27 To satisfy the waste and desolate land
And to make the seeds of grass to sprout?
28 “Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 “From whose womb has come the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who has given it birth?
30 “Water becomes hard like stone,
And the surface of the deep is imprisoned.

31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades,
Or loose the cords of Orion?
32 “Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,
And guide the Bear with her satellites?
33 “Do you know the ordinances of the heavens,
Or fix their rule over the earth?

34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
So that an abundance of water will cover you?
35 “Can you send forth lightnings that they may go
And say to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 “Who has put wisdom in the innermost being
Or given understanding to the mind?
37 “Who can count the clouds by wisdom,
Or tip the water jars of the heavens,
38 When the dust hardens into a mass
And the clods stick together?

39 “Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they crouch in their dens
And lie in wait in their lair?
41 “Who prepares for the raven its nourishment
When its young cry to God
And wander about without food?" Job 38:1-41 (2 of 2)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Since no one except God and the angels were present at creation (Job 38:4-7) all views on the origin of the universe and life must be based ultimately on faith rather than direct observation.

Very open-minded of you!

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Very open-minded of you!

In other words: "If you can't find the answer, make stuff up."

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
[b]"Since no one except God and the angels..."

Since no one except God and the angels were present at creation (Job 38:4-7) all views on the origin of the universe and life must be based ultimately on faith rather than direct observation. Faith is perception of reality based on the authority and/or veracity of God or someone else. Either we expre ...[text shortened]... through what has been made so that they [unbelievers] are without excuse." Romans 1:20 (1 of 2)[/b]

Since no one except God and the angels were present at creation

How do you know?

all views on the origin of the universe and life must be based ultimately on faith rather than direct observation

Science has empirical evidence that goes 99% of the way to explaining the origin of the univserse.

Faith is perception of reality based on the authority and/or veracity of God or someone else

Rubbish! Faith is merely a hope that believers will escape Hell.

Originally posted by Pianoman1

Since no one except God and the angels were present at creation

How do you know?

all views on the origin of the universe and life must be based ultimately on faith rather than direct observation

Science has empirical evidence that goes 99% of the way to explaining the origin of the univserse.

Faith is per ...[text shortened]... God or someone else

Rubbish! Faith is merely a hope that believers will escape Hell.

Originally posted by Pianoman1

Since no one except God and the angels were present at creation

"How do you know?" [By reason of accepting the veracity of God's Word: "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16 I accept the literal truth of the passage from Job 38 presented above. In speaking to Job, God confirmed that the angels pre-existed the creation of the universe; because they were on hand to see it. Only God and the angelic creation were present at its creation; the event of the beginnings of the human race was still 'future' in God's Plan: God in Eternity Past; Angels; Heavens and earth; Man.]

all views on the origin of the universe and life must be based ultimately on faith rather than direct observation

"Science has empirical evidence that goes 99% of the way to explaining the origin of the univserse." [Scientific Method ponders the wonders of the universe but can only guess at solutions to the mysteries, especially the question "why?". These beginnings lie well outside the boundaries of scientific observation and verification. Today's findings and theories are revised by tomorrow's discoveries. Hypotheses which cannot be verified degenerate into the realm of speculation. Scientific conclusions are no more valid than their premises. The universal law of cause and effect requires a cause outside itself.]

Faith is perception of reality based on the authority and/or veracity of God or someone else

"Rubbish! Faith is merely a hope that believers will escape Hell." [It's your eternal future, Pianoman1; the choice is yours.]

Originally posted by Pianoman1
Rubbish! Faith is merely a hope that believers will escape Hell.[/b]

No, faith is merely hope. Things we hope for are an end to suffering and death.

Is such hope misplaced? According to athiests, yes it is.

Science has empirical evidence that goes 99% of the way to explaining the origin of the univserse.

What then is the "origin" of the universe ? Give me the 99% explanation of the "origin" of the universe.

I'm all ears.

And HOW do you know that's 99% of the explanation ?

Originally posted by sonship

Science has empirical evidence that goes 99% of the way to explaining the origin of the univserse.

What then is the [b]"origin" of the universe ? Give me the 99% explanation of the "origin" of the universe.

I'm all ears.

And HOW do you know that's 99% of the explanation ?[/b]

The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model that describes the early development of the Universe. According to the theory, the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.798 ± 0.037 billion years ago, which is thus considered the age of the universe.

The Big Bang is the scientific theory that is most consistent with observations of the past and present states of the universe, and it is widely accepted within the scientific community. It offers a comprehensive explanation for a broad range of observed phenomena, including the abundance of light elements, the cosmic microwave background, large scale structure, and the Hubble diagram. The core ideas of the Big Bang—the expansion, the early hot state, the formation of light elements, and the formation of galaxies—are derived from these and other observations.

The Big Bang theory does not provide any explanation for the initial conditions of the universe; rather, it describes and explains the general evolution of the universe going forward from that point on.

While the scientific community was once divided between supporters of two different expanding universe theories—the Big Bang and the Steady State theory, observational confirmation of the Big Bang scenario came with the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation in 1964.

Originally posted by Pianoman1
The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model that describes the early development of the Universe. According to the theory, the Big Bang occurred approximately 13.798 ± 0.037 billion years ago, which is thus considered the age of the universe.

The Big Bang is the scientific theory that is most consistent with observations of the past and pr ...[text shortened]... Big Bang scenario came with the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation in 1964.

I am aware of all of these points. Not long ago on this Forum I wrote some of the things myself. That is in my own similar words, that the Big Bang was the "prevailing cosmological model".

I put it differently and added a detail which some people objected to. I said the Big Bang theory was the consensus view among cosmologists (with exceptions of course) and that it marked the beginning of the existence of time, space, matter, and energy.

When I made the statement it was objected to by an atheist here and there. Besides the point that the Big Bang is believed to be the beginning of the existence of time, space, matter, energy I think you have just said what I said a few days ago.

I'm in good company ?

But does this really tell us the origin of the universe or the event that is believed to have started it all ?

Secondly, if we do not know the whole origin how can we know that we have 99% of it? Maybe it could be 30%, 50%, 60% ?

Seems we cannot know what percentage of the details we have unless we have the whole answer.

Originally posted by sonship
I am aware of all of these points. Not long ago on this Forum I wrote some of the things myself. That is in my own similar words, that the Big Bang was the "prevailing cosmological model".

I put it differently and added a detail which some people objected to. I said the Big Bang theory was the consensus view among cosmologists (with exceptions of cour ...[text shortened]...
Seems we cannot know what percentage of the details we have unless we have the whole answer.

i thinks fair to say we know 99.9% from the big bang onwards. the percentage becomes an unknown when we take into consideration post and pre-big bang.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
i thinks fair to say we know 99.9% from the big bang onwards. the percentage becomes an unknown when we take into consideration post and pre-big bang.

We have to consider, for lack of any better human expression, "pre-big bang" if we are really going to talk about the universe "origin."

This was the statement:

Science has empirical evidence that goes 99% of the way to explaining the origin of the universe.

This my question:

What then is the "origin" of the universe ? Give me the 99% explanation of the "origin" of the universe.

This the first part of the reply:

The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model that describes the early development of the Universe.

Notice he wrote of the "early development." I requested the "origin."

I suppose he means "Here is 99% of it."

Came home today and the kitchen bin was overturned and last night's
takeaway scraps were everywhere. The puppy looked at me nervously;
the remains of sweet and sour sauce on her face made me suspicious!

But the puppy was thinking this:
Since no one except God and the angels were present at the bin
turnover all views on the origin of the kitchen mess must be based
ultimately on faith rather than direct observation.

She was wrong - as are you.

Originally posted by Pianoman1

Since no one except God and the angels were present at creation

How do you know?

all views on the origin of the universe and life must be based ultimately on faith rather than direct observation

Science has empirical evidence that goes 99% of the way to explaining the origin of the univserse.

Faith is perce ...[text shortened]... God or someone else

Rubbish! Faith is merely a hope that believers will escape Hell.

I think 9.9% is much closer.