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Originally posted by scottishinnzWhat? All I said was that we can make objective statements about the literary form of biblical passages. I never said that the bible is true because it says so...in fact, that has nothing to do with anything. Go back to belittling the fundies.
So, the bible is true because it says it is..... 😞
Here is a random selection of biblical passages:
1. Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace 2 with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2
through whom we have gained access (by faith) to this grace in which we stand, and we boast in hope of the glory of God.
3
Not only that, but we even boast of our afflictions, knowing that affliction produces endurance,
4
and endurance, proven character, and proven character, hope,
5
and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us.
Romans 5 1-5.
Does that look remotely like an allegory? For starters, it does not even have the narrative style that an allegory has. What about this one:
1 Since many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the events that have been fulfilled among us,
2
just as those who were eyewitnesses from the beginning and ministers of the word have handed them down to us,
3
I too have decided, after investigating everything accurately anew, to write it down in an orderly sequence for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4
so that you may realize the certainty of the teachings you have received.
Luke 1.1-4
Does that look like an allegory? It has a narrative style, as an envoi before the narrative. But would you classify that as an allegory?
The LORD is my shepherd; there is nothing I lack.
2
In green pastures you let me graze; to safe waters you lead me;
3
you restore my strength. You guide me along the right path for the sake of your name.
Psalm 23. 1-3.
Is this an allegory? It seems to more of an hymn, a tributary poem. It has nothing remotely allegorical.
Any reasonable person (you excepted) has the basic intelligence to distinguish between literary forms: from lyric, to narrative, to exposition. Most people can see that Genesis can be allegorical; they will also see intuitiively, however, that the above passages could not be reasonably called allegorical.
Originally posted by Conrau KThe literary style has nothing to do with whether something is allegorical. Heck, I could make up an allegorical tale of Bill Clinton's affair with Monika Lewinski, and write it in the first, third or fourteenth person style.
What? All I said was that we can make objective statements about the literary form of biblical passages. I never said that the bible is true because it says so...in fact, that has nothing to do with anything. Go back to belittling the fundies.
Here is a random selection of biblical passages:
1. Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have ...[text shortened]... o see intuitiively, however, that the above passages could not be reasonably called allegorical.
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Originally posted by scottishinnzGenerally, however, an allegory must be a narrative - a story. The psalm and the excerpt from Romans were not in narrative form. The part from Luke's gospel explicitly disavows that it is an allegory - it tells us that it aims to be an historical record. You may disagree about the content of the gospel, but you could not call it an allegory when it tells you that it is not an allegory.
The literary style has nothing to do with whether something is allegorical. Heck, I could make up an allegorical tale of Bill Clinton's affair with Monika Lewinski, and write it in the first, third or fourteenth person style.
Originally posted by jaywillIts indeed a book giving one, possible view, on why we are created and what we might have to do on this piece of earth etc.
It is a book telling us why we are created and what the eternal purpose of God is.
I bet you have no clue about any of these things apart from the Bible.
If I am wrong then tell us all - WHY are you here ? Why do you exist in this universe? And what is your destiny and purpose ?
Any of you skeptics. And don't bother coming back with [b]"Why do we have to have a purpose anyway?"
Such attitudes are pretty hopeless.[/b]
I say its a possible view since there is no proof that god doesnt exist. Tho, neither there is proof that he does exist.
So the bibel remains a bunch of storys in a book. A bunch of storys thought of when people saw and thought of things they couldnt explain. They went for a simple explination, theres an allmighty God, he created all, he knows all.
Didnt ppl use to think the earth was phlat? why? bcoz they didnt know any better, and tryd to explain things, how could it be round? ud fall off, so it had to be phlat...
My point with this example is that i think its useless to belive in something ppl thought of a long time ago, and cant proof.
I indeed do not have all the answers to the questions that the bible does try answer (wrong).
WHY are you here ?
Im not sure, i think i was created with alot of luck. Id like to belive in the Big Bang principle, witch had to create the universe...tho im not an expert on this area...but theres little more proof for it then a god.
Why do you exist in this universe?
Is there a reason for me to exist in this universe? I was just created with luck, because my parents had sex. I dont think theres a purpose for me. I like the life that i have tho, id like to survive, stay alive, and have as much good times as possible...i dont need some silly storys for that.
Now you might think my attitude is hopeless, and that i have to belive in Jezus to make it non-hopeless. Id rather stay hopeless then!
Jesus Christ. He has built up a lot of credibility. And He says it is true.
He didnt prove s**t tho. I can say im half man and half car, and i can transformate into a car, and i say its true. Doesnt make it true tho. You would ask me to show you, how i can transformate, if you will see that, you will have to belive it. I ask you to show me god, show me what i can do, if not, it remains a bunch of BS untill that day comes lol.
Thank you for your attention, my appologies for the length of my msg.
Originally posted by scottishinnzI argue on both sides of the religion issue from time to time, but for once I would like to throw some personal beliefs into the pile...
Well, if parts of the bible can be allegorical, it can ALL be allegorical. Then nothing differentiates it from a simple lie.
There IS one thing (I think there is more, but let's stick with one for now) that differentiates the Bible from a simple lie, and that is the MESSAGE that it contains; that we should treat others with respect, compassion, and love.
I don't think that any factual inconsistencies in the Bible detract from its meaning or worth any more than the factual inconsistencies in Star Wars, detract from its impact on culture or the quality of its story (or choose a different influential story if you don't like the Star Wars example).
zozozoz,
So the bibel remains a bunch of storys in a book. A bunch of storys thought of when people saw and thought of things they couldnt explain.
Only stories? How about clear teaching too? For example letters by the apostles teaching people how to experience the resurrected Christ. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
We do not just have stories in the Bible. We have teaching and instruction leading us by hand (if we are willing) how to substantiate the living God.
They went for a simple explination, theres an allmighty God, he created all, he knows all.
The Bible does not talk only about God the Creator. It speaks of God who became incarnate as a man Jesus Christ. It may seem long long ago to you. However down through the ages from then until now millions have claimed to have encountered this resurrected Son of God.
I have. If I said I did not know Jesus I would be lying. The power of truth should stand the test of time. And why would you be so foolish to assume that age effects an eternal everexisting Being. Time is a joke for such a One.
"I AM THAT I AM" (Exodus 3:14) Niether "a long time ago"
nor "a long time from now" effects the existence of the eternal "I AM". He always ways and always will be. How else could He grant the promise of eternal life unless He Himself was eternal?
Didnt ppl use to think the earth was phlat? why? bcoz they didnt know any better, and tryd to explain things, how could it be round? ud fall off, so it had to be phlat...
This is different. For all intents and purposes for them it was flat. The need to know its roundness did not occur until travel the globe wide became a possibility.
A better example would be that some people thought the earth was riding on the back of a giant turtle. However at that time the Holy Bible was already speaking of "the circle of the earth" and that God hung the earth upon nothing. Both of which concepts - a circular earth and an earth suspended upon nothing, are not that far off from the modern concept of the planet.
My point with this example is that i think its useless to belive in something ppl thought of a long time ago, and cant proof.
As I said there is a steady line of people from "long ago" until now, who testify that Jesus Christ is indeed knowable and experienciable.
So just yesterday is not that long ago. And just yesterday people's experience confirm what the New Testament teaches - that is the "the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). In other words, Jesus has transfigured Himself into a form in which He can dispense divine life into man. Men can receive the Person of the risen Son of God as divine and eternal life into their innermost being.
Not only Paul wrote it "long ago". Others in an unbroken line have testified the same experience - we can indeed know Jesus as the life giving Spirit.
I think the proof you seek would be in your receiving Christ into your own heart. It may seem like stepping off a cliff but His is FAITHFUL to be there to catch you.
So it does call for your faith. But it is not your faith alone but your faith plus the FAITHFULNESS of God.
[b]
I indeed do not have all the answers to the questions that the bible does try answer (wrong).
You may have to arrive at that certainty at the last judgement day. It may be that in the last judgment you discover that the Bible was telling you the right answers.
WHY are you here ?
Im not sure, i think i was created with alot of luck. Id like to belive in the Big Bang principle, witch had to create the universe...tho im not an expert on this area...but theres little more proof for it then a god.
Thanks for being honest about it. Neither did I have a clue until I touched the love of Christ. Then I realized that before the creation of the world He chose me to be a part of His kingdom for His glory and my enjoyment. In fact first He chose me to be a son of God and then He created the universe based upon this plan to have many sons of God.
What a shock it may be to you to discover that God so loved you that He planned to share eternity with you before He even created the universe. Then you can see that God has the ability to cause all things that ever happened to you to work out for the good.
The Apostle Paul wrote:
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers ..." (Romans 8:28,29a)
I exist in this universe to be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ the Son of God so that He might be the Firstborn Son among many other sons of God. THis was the eternal plan of God before the creation of the universe. God desires to mass produce many sons of God according to the standard model of the Firstborn Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Paul goes on to write:
"And those whom He predestinated, these He also called; and those whom He called, these He also justified; and those whom He justified, these He also glorified" (Rom. 8:29b)
Is God calling you? He is calling you to share the eternal splendour and glory of the Firstborn Son. He is calling you to be one of the many sons of God, the brothers of the Firstborn Son of God.
God created a universe for this. The size of it testifies the size of His great love for you and the eternity of enjoyment He has reserved for you if you would trust yourself to Jesus Christ.
Why do you exist in this universe?
Is there a reason for me to exist in this universe? I was just created with luck, because my parents had sex. I dont think theres a purpose for me. I like the life that i have tho, id like to survive, stay alive, and have as much good times as possible...i dont need some silly storys for that.
You may think that you are just here by accident. But you need Christ as your Savior because God has recorded all of your actions and He will not regard your sins, wrong doings, errors, transgressions, and iniquities as accidents of luck.
So you need not only the calling of God but also the justification of forgiveness through the death and resurrection of Christ. Everyone who believes in Christ will not be put to shame.
God will not regard your sins as accidents. So should not regard Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John as "silly stories" but rather a matter of where you will spend eternity. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
Originally posted by forkedknightIt contains that message and many other not so desirable messages.
There IS one thing (I think there is more, but let's stick with one for now) that differentiates the Bible from a simple lie, and that is the MESSAGE that it contains; that we should treat others with respect, compassion, and love.
I don't think 'a simple lie' is a good description either. Most fictional or semi-fictional stories still contain lots of information that may or may not be useful.
I don't think that any factual inconsistencies in the Bible detract from its meaning or worth any more than the factual inconsistencies in Star Wars, detract from its impact on culture or the quality of its story (or choose a different influential story if you don't like the Star Wars example).
But such inconsistencies do detract from the possibility that its content is factual. If you start looking for Obi Wan Kenobi and believing in 'the force' based on the content of star wars then there is something wrong with you.
We should also be ready to admit that the impact of both the Bible and star wars is not always positive.
Originally posted by zozozozoWhy must you put down the Bible it shows your lack of understanding. In the book of Rev. the devil is discribed as a dragon. If you take away it's legs, what do you have, a snake. This is the curse for that creature. THe NIV discribes as a creature that has lost it's legs. If you don't believe why are you in here. A lot of non believers often say that Christians are always shoving our beliefs down peoples throats. Aren't you now doing the same. Shoving your non beliefs down our throats. Also insulting what we believe. Don't you have something better to do than put people hope down. If you reply in a negitive manner you just further proven my point. God Bless
no need to, just a bunch of lame storys, i read better books!
:p
Originally posted by realeyezReligion is an insult to the dignity of humanity. Trying to correct mistakes is not a bad thing.
Why must you put down the Bible it shows your lack of understanding. In the book of Rev. the devil is discribed as a dragon. If you take away it's legs, what do you have, a snake. This is the curse for that creature. THe NIV discribes as a creature that has lost it's legs. If you don't believe why are you in here. A lot of non believers often say that Chris ...[text shortened]... le hope down. If you reply in a negitive manner you just further proven my point. God Bless
Originally posted by jaywillI don't know you, but I like the way you think. Jesus truly is THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS. I pray that God blesses you above all that you can think of, or imagine according to the powers that work within You. It is good to finally read a Jesus follower. I get tired of reading non believers post, it truly is refreshing. I thank Jesus that I found your post. I come in here to answer questions or prove people wrong about Jesus all the time. It was a great read. You keep on in the faith, and fight that good fight. God Bless you in Jesus name.
zozozoz,
[b]
So the bibel remains a bunch of storys in a book. A bunch of storys thought of when people saw and thought of things they couldnt explain.
Only stories? How about clear teaching too? For example letters by the apostles teaching people how to experience the resurrected Christ. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
...[text shortened]... l spend eternity. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.[/b]
Originally posted by realeyezThe only 'shoving down throats' that I object to are:
If you don't believe why are you in here. A lot of non believers often say that Christians are always shoving our beliefs down peoples throats. Aren't you now doing the same. Shoving your non beliefs down our throats. Also insulting what we believe. Don't you have something better to do than put people hope down. If you reply in a negitive manner you just further proven my point. God Bless
1. forcible conversion or coercion as is popular in highly religious societies.
2. threats such as 'you will go to hell'
3. imposing your faith on children.
4. the attitude of 'you cant understand what I am saying unless you believe so convert now and understand later'.
If a Christian comes to me and ones to discuss their faith in a sensible and logical manner, I never object, but they give up pretty quickly when I show them how illogical their beliefs are.