1. Standard membermenace71
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    26 Apr '11 04:28
    By RC words to be a Christian you must be a part of the JW organization. This would beg the question no other parts of Christianity are going out and obeying Christ commands? Which actually leads to another question what does it mean to be a Christian? I think on certain issues liberality and yet certain issues are set in stone or otherwise you no longer have Christianity. There was an example in acts of a man who loved and obeyed God and was seen as a Righteous man and yet he did not have an exact understanding of the Gospel and was corrected in His understanding. The disturbing part to me is that most cults do claim to be the only way to God.

    Manny
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    26 Apr '11 04:51
    Originally posted by menace71
    By RC words to be a Christian you must be a part of the JW organization. This would beg the question no other parts of Christianity are going out and obeying Christ commands? Which actually leads to another question what does it mean to be a Christian? I think on certain issues liberality and yet certain issues are set in stone or otherwise you no longer ha ...[text shortened]... ding. The disturbing part to me is that most cults do claim to be the only way to God.

    Manny
    It was an interesting thread and I don't believe we received any clear answer to your question. From what I could gather though, Galvo and Robbie are not united on this point. As I understand, Robbie sees the role of the JW as practically necessary in order to be Christian. No other church follows the teachings of the Christ and the Holy Spirit does not offer the ignorant any guidance. Therefore, the JW organisation is essential for the person to discover and practice authentically the teachings of Christ. Theoretically, I guess, another church could become Christian if it simply followed the Church's teachings.

    This would contrast with the Catholic and Orthodox understanding of Christianity, which sees membership in the Church not as a matter of practical necessity but as ontologically necessary. Christian life is essentially a participation in the life of Christ's church. A maximal interpretation of this line would see a Christian as necessarily baptised and living a life of faith. A minimal interpretation might simply require the person to be of honest heart and striving to live morally (therefore, having a kind of invisible membership in the life of the church.) The Church is not practically necessary; it simply isn't possible to be a Christian apart from Christ's church.

    Galvo, as I see, follows something similar to this latter view, without the attendant ecclesiology. A person might be Christian without adhering visibly to the JW organisation. Simply by their honest disposition and by God's mercy, they may lead holy lives and therefore be considered Christian. Galvo, to be fair, did not explicitly claim any disagreement with Robbie but it is a simple matter of inference that they are in disagreement.

    Quite probably the JWs have not reached a final point of doctrine on this issue (I really don't know.) Obviously they want to emphasise the necessity of their organisation and if they allowed that some outside their organisation might be Christian, it might compromise the claim to uniqueness of their organisation. On the other hand, if they deny that there are any Christians outside their organisation, they must say that anyone between the time of the early church and the foundation of their organisation was not Christian, as though God abandoned his flock. I am not sure their organisation has the intellectual rigor to address these complexities.
  3. Standard membermenace71
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    26 Apr '11 05:10
    Great insight thanks. I believe the JW organization will undergo change in the future as the older members die out. If I remember correctly the board or whatever the organization is that makes the decisions on their doctrine is elderly and they are dying out. They are supposed to be part of the 144K kinda strange. Also though they claim they have no clergy structure that is not correct. The Watch Tower society is the hierarchy for the rest of the followers. The commands and ideas for them to follow come from the Watch tower. The track record of said Watch tower over the years is horrible as far as predictive prophecy and date setting for the end to come. I think the founder believed in a literal return of Christ but when the date came and past it became expedient to have an invisible return of Christ. It's just silly there are like 75+ dates (maybe closer to a 100 dates) where in the "awake magazine" they claim the end is near on a certain date but it comes to pass without anything. G-75 argues well it's because "We" the JW's now have more light on the subject and they did not. If held to the OT law someone should have been stoned for being a false prophet. I will say I believe there are devout God fearing people who want to be closer to God among the JW's no doubt and who am I to judge but the organization is so easy to slam it's silly. I will even go as far as to say there are JW's going out and doing acts of kindness and helping mankind in some way. The problem is with there doctrine.

    Manny
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    26 Apr '11 05:112 edits
    Originally posted by Conrau K
    It was an interesting thread and I don't believe we received any clear answer to your question. From what I could gather though, Galvo and Robbie are not united on this point. As I understand, Robbie sees the role of the JW as practically necessary in order to be Christian. No other church follows the teachings of the Christ and the Holy Spirit does not off am not sure their organisation has the intellectual rigor to address these complexities.
    I am not sure their organisation has the intellectual rigor to address these
    complexities??? what a piece of intellectual snobbery!

    its as simple as this , you practice the teachings of Christ you are a Christian. You
    people could not name one other organisation which puts as much emphasis, or any
    emphasis for that matter on teaching people about Gods Kingdom after the manner
    of Christ and the early disciples. Matthew 28:19,20, Acts 20:20.

    Perhaps an illustration of Christ shall suffice.

    (Matthew 13:24-30) . . .Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The
    kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field.
     While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the
    wheat, and left.  When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds
    appeared also.  So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master,
    did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’
     He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us,
    then, to go out and collect them?’  He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting
    the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them.  Let both grow together until the
    harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and
    bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my
    storehouse.’”

    For anyone who knows anything about it, the reference here to weeds is a reference
    to bearded darnel, which of course looks like wheat in every way, yet is considered
    poisonous. The fact of the matter is, that time will tell, for who remains asleep
    when there is a harvest to be gathered in? Did not Christ state that he was 'Lord of
    the Harvest', 'the Harvest is great yet the workers are few?', indeed anyone
    professing to be a Christian needs to think seriously about these words,

    (Matthew 12:30) . . .He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not
    gather with me scatters.

    NO EXCUSES!
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    26 Apr '11 05:141 edit
    Originally posted by menace71
    Great insight thanks. I believe the JW organization will undergo change in the future as the older members die out. If I remember correctly the board or whatever the organization is that makes the decisions on their doctrine is elderly and they are dying out. They are supposed to be part of the 144K kinda strange. Also though they claim they have no clergy ndness and helping mankind in some way. The problem is with there doctrine.

    Manny
    wow suddenly an expert on the workings of the Jehovahs witness organisation, i just
    might like to point out, the watchtower society is simply a legal corporation which was
    necessary to set up in order to print literature, but you knew that, not.
  6. Standard membermenace71
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    26 Apr '11 05:491 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    wow suddenly an expert on the workings of the Jehovahs witness organisation, i just
    might like to point out, the watchtower society is simply a legal corporation which was
    necessary to set up in order to print literature, but you knew that, not.
    Well I've used your own organization's literature and history against you before but to no avail. If it were a court case your organizations literature would prove and seal the case for me.

    #1 founder a shiester and proven to be a liar
    and his successor a power hungry indivdual
    #2 False prophecy from late 1800's up to 1990's all documented in the "Awake"
    #3 Doctrines that are not from the bible which hold men to a heavy burden
    #4 Creating a faulty translation to suite the doctrines of the organization
    #5 In older literature from your organization you can find things printed in which later literature your organization prints something which contradicts earlier printed
    items or doctrines.
    Just goes on and on.

    Manny
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    26 Apr '11 05:59
    Originally posted by menace71
    By RC words to be a Christian you must be a part of the JW organization. This would beg the question no other parts of Christianity are going out and obeying Christ commands? Which actually leads to another question what does it mean to be a Christian? I think on certain issues liberality and yet certain issues are set in stone or otherwise you no longer ha ...[text shortened]... ding. The disturbing part to me is that most cults do claim to be the only way to God.

    Manny
    Manny, if they are correct it would be a first.
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    26 Apr '11 05:59
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I am not sure their organisation has the intellectual rigor to address these
    complexities??? what a piece of intellectual snobbery!

    its as simple as this , you practice the teachings of Christ you are a Christian. You
    people could not name one other organisation which puts as much emphasis, or any
    emphasis for that matter on teaching peopl ...[text shortened]... not on my side is against me, and he that does not
    gather with me scatters.

    NO EXCUSES!
    What a shocker...still no clear answer to the initial question.
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    26 Apr '11 06:002 edits
    Originally posted by menace71
    Well I've used your own organization's literature and history against you before but to no avail. If it were a court case your organizations literature would prove and seal the case for me.

    #1 founder a shiester and proven to be a liar
    and his successor a power hungry indivdual
    #2 False prophecy from late 1800's up to 1990's all documented in ing which contradicts earlier printed
    items or doctrines.
    Just goes on and on.

    Manny
    i dont bother to read this type of garbage any more. NO EXCUSES for plastic, weed like
    Christians.
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    26 Apr '11 06:011 edit
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    What a shocker...still no clear answer to the initial question.
    duh? perhaps you had better read the other thread before typing with your mouth
    open, better to have your mind open than your mouth, in your case anyway.
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    26 Apr '11 06:264 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    duh? perhaps you had better read the other thread before typing with your mouth
    open, better to have your mind open than your mouth, in your case anyway.
    Duh...I have read the other thread, as well as this one. It would have been better if you had simply said "yes" and not tried to justify the answer...because your attempts at justification are rather confusing and really do not make a very good case. The reasons you give for why the answer is yes do not in the least show that one should think the answer is yes.

    Your argument is a little like this. "The answer is yes. One is a Christian just in case he follows the teachings of Christ. And can you guys name for me any group that is more devoted and united in following the teachings of Christ? (Stops for a spell to stick fingers in ears....) Nope? Didn't think so."

    This is a bad argument for many reasons. One is that it does not even make sense because the idea that the JWs are the most devoted group to the teachings of Christ (even if it were true, which is otherwise implausible) does not imply that others cannot be sufficiently devoted to the same basic cause. In fact, even if you were right that no other group has any devotion to the teachings of Christ (which is an outrageously implausible claim, as well as an incredibly arrogant one), that still would not actually address the question.

    Perhaps you do not understand the initial question that Manny had? Or do you not understand what it means for some thing to be necessary for something else?
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    26 Apr '11 06:451 edit
    The JW organisation are stuck between a rock and a hard place on this question from Manny, because it challenges them to either separate themselves even further from mainstream Christianity and risk appearing even more cult-like; or to lower the barrier to entry to being accepted as a 'Christian' without having JW membership and therefore risk an exodus from their ranks.

    It is a similar dilemma to the one I posed them a few months ago on salvation, which the JWs here also resisted answering yes or no, then disagreed with each other, then changed their minds and then were finally corrected by Proper Knob, who pointed out from their own literature that you do indeed need to be in the JW organisation in order to be accepted into heaven/saved (whatever they call it).

    It was surprising given their tenure within the organisation, that both robbie carrobie and Galveston were unaware of this doctrine considering it's importance to life after death; but then perhaps the doctrine is seen as being a little extreme these days and the current leadership hasn't promoted it as much.
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    26 Apr '11 09:221 edit
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    Duh...I have read the other thread, as well as this one. It would have been better if you had simply said "yes" and not tried to justify the answer...because your attempts at justification are rather confusing and really do not make a very good case. The reasons you give for why the answer is yes do not in the least show that one should think the answer Or do you not understand what it means for some thing to be necessary for something else?
    well duh. how it escaped your notice that i did say yes, several times, in fact, i even put
    it in bold for the hard of comprehension! not to mention provide reason, although it
    was clear that the original poster was not interested in reason.

    as for your preposterous and erroneous assertions regarding my premise of what
    defines a Christian, not only did i demonstrate its validity but i challenged anyone to
    finds its flaw, and what have we here, nothing but mere opinion heaped upon mere
    opinion in a huge pile of opinionated nothingness! It is to laugh for instead of
    providing any reason to the contrary you do what all desperadoes do, you attack
    the person, ad hominen, as if, in some strange contortion, it lends weight to the
    puniness of your argument. what is it about yes, i do think you need to be a
    member of Jehovahs Witnesses that yet evades you? the language, is it too
    flowery, verbose? perhaps its hidden in in house terminology? If you do not follow
    the teachings of the Christ you are not a Christian you are something else. is that
    really sooooo hard for you to understand? for God knows your having trouble with it.
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    26 Apr '11 09:271 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    The JW organisation are stuck between a rock and a hard place on this question from Manny, because it challenges them to either separate themselves even further from mainstream Christianity and risk appearing even more cult-like; or to lower the barrier to entry to being accepted as a 'Christian' without having JW membership and therefore risk an exodus as being a little extreme these days and the current leadership hasn't promoted it as much.
    we are stuck nowhere, the G-man was merely being diplomatic, i just came right out
    and said it, fed up with pandering to your over sensitive sensibilities, its all right for
    you to call us non-christians but you dont like it when its said in return. the day we
    take lessons on Christianity from those who are unwilling to help others through
    teaching and preaching the Good News of Gods Kingdom, so that they may also
    establish a relationship with God, is a sad day indeed, untill you people start to do that
    work, all your words are a clashing symbol, for you have FAILED to exercise justice
    and show kindness through reaching out to others, you are as far removed from the
    Christ as anyone could imagine.
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    26 Apr '11 14:46
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I am not sure their organisation has the intellectual rigor to address these
    complexities??? what a piece of intellectual snobbery!

    its as simple as this , you practice the teachings of Christ you are a Christian. You
    people could not name one other organisation which puts as much emphasis, or any
    emphasis for that matter on teaching peopl ...[text shortened]... not on my side is against me, and he that does not
    gather with me scatters.

    NO EXCUSES!
    Look, this doesn't explain anything. I don't think many would want to argue with your definition of a Christian as 'someone who practices the teachings of Christ'. Most people would acknowledge that as a good measure for Christian identity. What your definition lacks is critical detail about what those teachings are and especially whether practicing Christian teachings requires membership in the JW organisation. I believe I have summarised your position fully. If you think that I have misrepresented you, then show me where.
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