29 Apr 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe atoms may be completely different, but their configuration hasn't changed much, hence he's still the same person.
Basically that it what we all are.
Counter-intuitive and not what we would want.
But that's just tough. Suck it up!!
Are you the same person I was talking to a few minutes ago ?
The atoms that make up your physical being are very much different now then they were then.
So what unifies this structure to make it ...[text shortened]... to another what unifies these varied states to cause a "you" to endure throughout the changes ?
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyAt first stellspalfie answered very calmly and clearly to you, GB. And you being you, you pissed all over that.
There's no chance for constructive conversation whenever one or both parties are reacting and emoting, rather than listening and thinking and responding with honest questions.... in that venue conversations are productive even with argumentation.
But, whatever you do, don't be critical of yourself. It's all the others fault, never yours.
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29 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Great King RatThanks. Now let him answer for himself. IF he says "Yea, that's it" I'll take it as his answer.
The atoms may be completely different, but their configuration hasn't changed much, hence he's still the same person.
Too much tag team sometimes. Let's see what wolfgang59 would say.
29 Apr 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyQuoth the black hole of argumentation himself.
There's no chance for constructive conversation whenever one or both parties are reacting and emoting, rather than listening and thinking and responding with honest questions.... in that venue conversations are productive even with argumentation.
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29 Apr 14
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfie
can anybody give an even remotely logical reason for the existence and function of a soul. what does a soul do that a brain doesnt and visa-versa?
Physical events in the brain and central nervous system can be described in terms of chemistry, physics, and biology. Mental events are such things like thoughts, feelings of pain, the experience of being a person, or the sense of image of a ball in the mind.
These mental cannot be measured in centimeters or weighed in grams.
These mental events are not located physically in space. You arguments that you are now formulating in your mind are not located in terms of inches from you left or right ear.
The brain event may be located inside your skull on the brain. There may be a chemical description of the brain state associated with your seeing a bright pink ball. Perhaps an electrical current can be detected pinpointing brain activity associated with your seeing a bright pink ball. But if you now then close your eyes after seeing the ball and remember the image, nothing in your brain turns bright pink as you remember.
Your physical brain states and your mental soul states are correlated but are not identical. So there are things your soul and mind can do which your physical brain does not and cannot do.
29 Apr 14
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThat is irrelevant to the answer you gave to the question in the OP. I was just pointing out that the answer you gave is actually no answer at all unless you can explain why those phenomena can only reside in the soul and cannot be emergent properties of the structure and processes within the brain.
Hi, --- Penguin. Seems you forgot one:
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]i start a thread............but tean have to display to you that i am interested enough to be worthy of your words...........and then when ready, message you privately.............fk,me. get your ego in check old man.
thank you.[/b]
--- Penguin
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29 Apr 14
Originally posted by sonship[b]can anybody give an even remotely logical reason for the existence and function of a soul. what does a soul do that a brain doesnt and visa-versa?
Physical events in the brain and central nervous system can be described in terms of chemistry, physics, and biology. Mental events are such things like thoughts, feelings of pain, th ...[text shortened]... So there are things your soul and mind can do which your physical brain does not and cannot do.[/b]"These mental cannot be measured in centimeters or weighed in grams"
not true. thought is a series of electrical impulses, electrical impulses have mass and therefore have weight, which could be measured in grams and could if we had the technology be measured in centimeters.
These mental events are not located physically in space
not true. the events are electrical bursts occurring in physical space.
You arguments that you are now formulating in your mind are not located in terms of inches from you left or right ear.
that is exactly what is happening. my thoughts occur in by brain, which is located between my left and right ear. if you dont believe arguments are formed in the brain, what do you think the purpose of the brain is????
The brain event may be located inside your skull on the brain. There may be a chemical description of the brain state associated with your seeing a bright pink ball. Perhaps an electrical current can be detected pinpointing brain activity associated with your seeing a bright pink ball. But if you now then close your eyes after seeing the ball and remember the image, nothing in your brain turns bright pink as you remember.
this is all true, we never actually really see the things we create in our minds eye. its really just a series of thoughts making us think we are seeing. just like if a computer creates a ball with zero's and one's but has no screen to display the ball, the ball is still there but not in image form.
Your physical brain states and your mental soul states are correlated but are not identical. So there are things your soul and mind can do which your physical brain does not and cannot do.
this is the bit im really interested in. what are the differences? what can one do that the other cannot?
Originally posted by Great King Rat"GB's answer:
Seems you forgot one:
Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]you need to explain why these thing do not exist in the brain and only in the soul for anybody to understand your answer.[/b]
stellspalfie's consciousness, mentality, conscience and volition reside in stellspalfie's unique and immortal immaterial soul.
GKR, "the brain" is a corporeal physical organ as is the cardiovascular heart pump; the soul is immaterial and immortal.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI can see how the word "immaterial" can enter into it because of the human capacity for abstraction but the word "immortal" doesn't work. You have no proof whatsoever that your "soul" ~ your identity, your accumulated memories and thoughts, arranged into a perceived narrative which makes you uniquely you [I'm offering that thumbnail definition for the sake of argument] ~ is "immortal". Nor does recorded human history offer any evidence that the "soul" is "immortal". It is simply something that you tell yourself is true, for reasons of your own, and that has no impact on anyone's else's reality, nor upon the finality/actuality of death.
GKR, "the brain" is a corporeal physical organ as is the cardio functioning heart; the soul is immaterial and immortal.
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Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]"These mental cannot be measured in centimeters or weighed in grams"
not true. thought is a series of electrical impulses, electrical impulses have mass and therefore have weight, which could be measured in grams and could if we had the technology be measured in centimeters.
These mental events are not located physically in space
...[text shortened]... he bit im really interested in. what are the differences? what can one do that the other cannot?[/b]
sonship: "These mental cannot be measured in centimeters or weighed in grams"
stells: not true. thought is a series of electrical impulses, electrical impulses have mass and therefore have weight, which could be measured in grams and could if we had the technology be measured in centimeters.
No you are wrong. And it is not worth it to pursue the worldview that you pursue. In fact for one interested in Buddhism, I am surprised that you would adopt such a total physicalism view of reality.
Now you asked what the mind can do that the brain cannot do (paraphrased).
The mind can be available to you on a private basis in which no one else can have access. But your brain could be thoroughly be made acquainted with by a brain surgeon.
A brain surgeon could gain more knowledge about your physical brain then you yourself have. But you private thoughts are beyond his or her domain to know. The surgeon may record, locate, and map out everything about your physical brain.
Your private mental thoughts are available to no one else except you if you choose to conceal them. Therefore the mind can do something that the brain cannot do. And therefore though working together - they are not identical.
sonship:
These mental events are not located physically in space
stella:
not true. the events are electrical bursts occurring in physical space.
The electrical bursts are not your thoughts.
As said above - a surgeon could pinpoint where electrical activity is in your brain. But if you chose not to reveal to them your private thoughts, there is no way their content could be known.
Locating electrical activity in the grey matter does not identify which of the books by say, Allen Watts, you might be recalling or which Zen koan you might be meditating on.
That identification is not available to anyone but yourself.
sonship:
You arguments that you are now formulating in your mind are not located in terms of inches from you left or right ear.
stella:
that is exactly what is happening. my thoughts occur in by brain, which is located between my left and right ear. if you dont believe arguments are formed in the brain, what do you think the purpose of the brain is????
Your thoughts are abstract objects like numbers.
Where is the number 17 located ?
When you imagine two numbers carved out of wood - and you imagine them to be two inches apart where are they in your brain ?
Now imagine them to be two hundred miles apart, perhaps in different cities. Where then are they in your brain ? How many centimeters constitute one mile in your brain ?
sonship:
The brain event may be located inside your skull on the brain. There may be a chemical description of the brain state associated with your seeing a bright pink ball. Perhaps an electrical current can be detected pinpointing brain activity associated with your seeing a bright pink ball. But if you now then close your eyes after seeing the ball and remember the image, nothing in your brain turns bright pink as you remember.
stella:
this is all true, we never actually really see the things we create in our minds eye. its really just a series of thoughts making us think we are seeing. just like if a computer creates a ball with zero's and one's but has no screen to display the ball, the ball is still there but not in image form.
The ball is not there. There is a place in storage or in another component which has a series electric switches of 1s and 0s which might stand for letters which spell out in English the word "ball".
The ball is not there.
And I'd like to see you go down to the Buddhist temple and talk like this. I'd like to know what they would say when you told them Nirvana was an electrical impulse somewhere located in your brain.
To repeat: It would be possible for a brain surgeon to know more about your brain than you do. He may look into your brain and see it better than your do, and know all about its operations better than you do. But he does not know your mental life as well as you do.
The brain surgeon also could be mistaken about what is going on physically in your brain. But you could not be mistaken about what is going on in your mind as you purpose to think of something.
No one can have first person access to your thoughts but you.
this is the bit im really interested in. what are the differences? what can one do that the other cannot?
Explained above in one way. Your brain can be available for knowledge to the surgeon. Your mind can remain a private matter which you can conceal for yourself alone.