Souls

Originally posted by Doward
[b] I did not claim that alcohol creates silly words. However the combination of alcohol and the brain does.

So does the combination of jumping off a roof and landing on your brain bucket. I think its important to stress here that nothing eminates from within that is not already contained within. The alcohol has no sentience, it by itself cannot create ...[text shortened]... ughts words and deeds eminate from the self, regardless of how polluted the traffic ways may be.[/b]

But the polluted traffic ways, and the language which is induced by a physical thing manifests itself as a variant of *me* (which many theists assert has a supernatural component), and so the question remains, what part does some supernatural element of myself play in this process? (is it affected by beer too!???) and how do you make sure I cannot describe this in natural terms?

That is, at what point do I have to stop and say, "ah yes...what I did then or what I wanted to do has got nothing to do with anything that is physical - going to have to invoke the supernatural here..whatever that may be!"

Originally posted by Agerg
But the polluted traffic ways, and the language which is induced by a physical thing manifests itself as a variant of *me* (which many theists assert has a supernatural component), and so the question remains, what part does some supernatural element of myself play in this process? (is it affected by beer too!???) and how do you make sure I cannot describe thi ...[text shortened]... g that is physical - going to have to invoke the supernatural here..whatever that may be!"[/i]

you're asking to measure the immeasurable

Originally posted by Doward
you're asking to measure the immeasurable

I disagree...I'm specifically trying to avoid asking you what a soul *is*, since as per my OP and subsequent posts, the responses to *that* question serve me no purpose; more I'm asking you where I have no choice but to say "I give up...this aspect of *me* cannot be explained away in physical terms." (beyond assertions of *the "God" part of me* or whatever that I do not recognise as existent anyway - or seem to play no role in my actions.)

Originally posted by Agerg
I disagree...I'm specifically trying to avoid asking you what a soul *is*, since as per my OP and subsequent posts, the responses to *that* question serve me no purpose; more I'm asking you where I have no choice but to say "I give up...this aspect of *me* cannot be explained away in physical terms." (beyond assertions of *the "God" part of me* o ...[text shortened]... tever that I do not recognise as existent anyway - or seem to play no role in my actions.)

asked and answered, we are more than the sum of our biological functions

Originally posted by Doward
asked and answered, we are more than the sum of our biological functions

That's not really much of an answer though; it's the trivial answer which does little to answer my question or dissuade my position on this matter. Furthermore I met that response (and your subsequent response, up to rephrasing was merely a mutual agreement).

To put in different terms, if someone said the behaviour of their car can be descibed purely in terms of it's engine at some level, they would perhaps be stumped if one was to hit them with ah...but what about the painted on "go faster stripes"?Reveal Hidden Content

That induce approving/envious comments in others like \"ooh! nice paintwork...wish my car had those!\"

What do they have to do with the engine!??? 😕

Originally posted by Agerg
That's not really much of an answer though; it's the trivial answer which does little to answer my question or dissuade my position on this matter. Furthermore I met that response (and your subsequent response, up to rephrasing was merely a mutual agreement).

To put in different terms, if someone said the behaviour of their car can be descibed purely in ter ...[text shortened]... bout the painted on "go faster stripes"? What do they have to do with the engine!???[/i] 😕

if one could actually measure the total functions of the human biological being, and come to an accurate quantitative total, then what part above that total would be the "more than the sum"? If it were .00000001% what that be enough to sate your curiosity? Ii should think it should be. For isn't it a type of miracle that an organism/animal such as man can be so much more than poo flinging apes. Are our brains bigger than other animals? No, whales and elephants have much larger brains. Are our perceptions better than other animals? Certainly not, birds see better, most mammals hear better, and many have a far greater sense of smell.

The "what" is less important than the miracle.

Originally posted by Doward
if one could actually measure the total functions of the human biological being, and come to an accurate quantitative total, then what part above that total would be the "more than the sum"? If it were .00000001% what that be enough to sate your curiosity? Ii should think it should be. For isn't it a type of miracle that an organism/animal such as man can be ...[text shortened]... d many have a far greater sense of smell.

The "what" is less important than the miracle.

I'm not really seeing the "miracle" indeed I could throw this argument right back at you and ask "is the fact that this little laptop I'm using to have our conversation here, is vastly more capable than laptops of the nineties inspite of their similarity of components a miracle?"

You would presumably answer no, and argue that the components in my current laptop are better adapted to produce the functionality I expect in this one than in older models. Similarly I can argue that though my brain size may be comparable to that of another creature, it's components and wiring are better adapted so to give rise to the greater reasoning power we have over other animals - this is not indicative of a miracle, it is indicative of evolution. [1]

Again (actually I didn't explicitly state this), I don't regard us as a linear sum of our parts, I regard us as a non-linear 'function' of our parts - that is, the base functionality of each of our components when (if???) quantified and summed need not be equal to the functionality we possess as biological constructs that are built from these components. Moreover, that it isn't is not in itself anyway a convincing argument for some supernatural component residing within us.



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1) For indeed if we did not have this greater reasoning power then ancient animals with sharp pointy claws, stocky frames and nasty rows of teeth would have gobbled us up if we, with our less than impressive strength speed and bite, blunderheadedly went toe-to-toe with them in a fist fight. To this end, the "sufficiently" smarter humans would have used tools to kill these animals (for food), built better shelters, and developed strategies to evade or ward off threats such that their clever offspring (in competition with other clever humans and not so clever animals/humans that are too lazy or stupid to kill their own "risky" meals) would be more likely to survive - to produce more clever humans, and as time goes on, even more intelligent versions of humans with an increasing pool of tactics and resources to draw upon. That is to say; we humans lacking the intelligence we have/had would have been, from an evolutionary point of view, unstable - we'd have died out.

Originally posted by Doward
when you are drunk you are still you, just a you that allows the excuse of intoxication to free you to do and say silly stupid things. Those stupid things still arise from YOU, booze doesn't implant words and thoughts into your head, they existed there already, its just that the gatekeeper is asleep and the inmates are roaming free.

I agree with this.
Having had my girlie do through alcoholic problems and violent tendencies,we have concluded together that those violent tendencies are there all the time, it just takes the alcohol to bring it out.

I just wanted to comment because I'm sick of hearing " alcohol made me like that".

Mind you she is doing fine relatively and it is a minor miracle she hasn't offed herself considering the raw deal ,(coupled with her innate rash tendencies), she has recieved in her life.
And I still maintain that everyone gets what they deserve.

Originally posted by Agerg
I disagree, for by tanking myself up on alcohol, though it is true certain aspects of my character are given greater reign, it is also true that this character is operating with greatly decreased perception and reasoning along with other 'disabilities' and so the *me* when I'm drunk isn't quite a suppressed version of *me* when I'm sober.

Geez , I wish I could get drunk.
It must be my genetics, those Hungarians drinking like....I dont know, Hungarians for thousands of years.
The indegenous people here have been blamed for much alcohol fueled violence and what not. Us whiteys seem to forget that alcohol was introduced to them by us only 200 years ago. Tis no wonder it affects them so greatly, their brains aren't used to it...

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I agree with this.
Having had my girlie do through alcoholic problems and violent tendencies,we have concluded together that those violent tendencies are there all the time, it just takes the alcohol to bring it out.

I just wanted to comment because I'm sick of hearing " alcohol made me like that".

Mind you she is doing fine relatively and it is ...[text shortened]... ), she has recieved in her life.
And I still maintain that everyone gets what they deserve.

But the alcohol intensifies the violent tendencies in a person who would otherwise successfully supress them. Not that I'm excusing violent drunkards, wife-beaters etc... (who should know better than to get so drunk if that's the side of them alcohol brings out) More I'm arguing that the character who behaves aggressively after drinking behaves so as a consequence of tangible changes in their brain function because of the alcohol. The reason I argue this is purely for the purpose of the question I asked in my OP and to press the issue that a person's character seems to be wholly dependent on physical phenomenon.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Geez , I wish I could get drunk.
It must be my genetics, those Hungarians drinking like....I dont know, Hungarians for thousands of years.
The indegenous people here have been blamed for much alcohol fueled violence and what not. Us whiteys seem to forget that alcohol was introduced to them by us only 200 years ago. Tis no wonder it affects them so greatly, their brains aren't used to it...

Hah...not that this should be taken as sexist or anything but the even the smallest/frailest of ladies can always 'drink me under the table!' I just don't have the tolerence to the stuff that others have.

Again - this is a good thing!...costs me less :]

Originally posted by twhitehead
Can you describe further how it gives you identity?
Agerg has already pointed out that mind altering substances or brain injuries can dramatically change the way we think, our memories and even our character. So clearly this 'identity' you talk of is not every day thoughts, memories, character etc.
Or is the soul itself affected by alcohol?

Alcohol makes music better for me and makes me want to turn off the tv.

In that sense, I think it is good.( so the soul , if there is one, is affected in some way) (Or you could say that the "force of animation" changes its outlook . Do you deny that there is a force of animation?)

My doctors have been telling me to cut down for years, despite my grandad drinking like a fish and smoking like a chimney until he was 95 with a wife 40 years younger than him.
My dad still plays water polo at age 75.
Those hungarians just drink and drink and smoke and drink and smoke and drink and drink.
The aussies think they drink a lot...pffft. They are lightweights in comparison.

Originally posted by Agerg
But the alcohol intensifies the violent tendencies in a person who would otherwise successfully supress them. Not that I'm excusing violent drunkards, wife-beaters etc... (who should know better than to get so drunk if that's the side of them alcohol brings out) More I'm arguing that the character who behaves aggressively after drinking behaves so as a consequ ...[text shortened]... ess the issue that a person's character seems to be wholly dependent on physical phenomenon.

So you are arguing for safety first when it comes to alcohol?
(people with violent tendencies should supress them?)

Originally posted by karoly aczel
So you are arguing for safety first when it comes to alcohol?
(people with violent tendencies should supress them?)

I think people that who become dangerous when they drink should try to stop drinking; and their friends should take an active part in encouraging this activity. Once they're off their face it's no doubt a wasted exercise asking them not to behave like dicks (since at this stage the alcohol has screwed with their wirings that they're beyond reason, and way short of their normal faculties).

Originally posted by Agerg
I think people that who become dangerous when they drink should try to stop drinking; and their friends should take an active part in encouraging this activity. Once they're off their face it's no doubt a wasted exercise asking them not to behave like dicks (since at this stage the alcohol has screwed with their wirings that they're beyond reason, and way short of their normal faculties).

Its not as simple as that, but I will agree, this is where midstrength comes in, it really helps those that dont know their limits.

Friends should help, but the ego is often too strong to be helped by anyone other than itself.
Thats why some find it useful to talk about their souls, because they associate that word with some kind of purity and rationality, and if it helps them stay of the booze, I say its good.
Like christianity, it may be a half-fabricated religon, but if its going to stop someone from murdering, then I say its good.