1. Melbourne, Australia
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    17 May '13 13:04
    When an object moves into an empty space, space is still there where we behold the object. If no space, no object, MU!
  2. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
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    17 May '13 19:54
    Originally posted by Taoman
    When an object moves into an empty space, space is still there where we behold the object. If no space, no object, MU!
    If an object moves into an empty space, it is no longer empty.
  3. Joined
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    17 May '13 20:22
    Why would an object be interested in an empty space?
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    17 May '13 22:23
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Why would an object be interested in an empty space?
    Same reason that form is interested in emptiness
  5. Joined
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    18 May '13 08:47
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Same reason that form is interested in emptiness
    Such an insightful thread.
  6. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 May '13 11:12
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    If an object moves into an empty space, it is no longer empty.
    You observe correctly. Yes, it is no longer empty. Even our language indicates it as something still existent. "It" is no longer empty, "It" is filled. The object is in the space. The space it is occupying is still there, is it not?

    Note that I did not say the space was empty when the object moved into it. Move your hand around, observe it - the space doesn't pop in and out of existence. Where does it go? Where is it? It's there all the time.

    Equally, if there was no space for the object to be move into and out of, to be in, the object could not be there either.

    This is an analogy to the Buddhist concept of emptiness, in which all things rest upon each other - there is no object that is entirely unto itself.
    It, and we, do not exist in that manner. This is an illusion. We cannot see this, as we cannot see that space that is still there enabling the object to be. We are, but we (and all) is not as we think, even as we thought so "obviously" that the sun moved around the earth.

    To me and others this is important in the sense it enables us to experience what existing is like in its deepest sense, where the hard edges of life are not the final word.
    -----------------------------------------------
    "A human being is part of a whole, called by us the 'universe', a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest - a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.
    This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affectation for a few people near us.
    Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."

    "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

    Albert Einstein.
  7. Melbourne, Australia
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    18 May '13 11:14
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Such an insightful thread.
    Thank you. πŸ˜‰
  8. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    slatington, pa, usa
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    18 May '13 15:39
    Originally posted by Taoman
    You observe correctly. Yes, it is no longer empty. Even our language indicates it as something still existent. "It" is no longer empty, "It" is filled. The object is in the space. The space it is occupying is still there, is it not?

    Note that I did not say the space was empty when the object moved into it. Move your hand around, observe it - the space doe ...[text shortened]... eality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

    Albert Einstein.
    I gather you have not heard of the Casimir effect? It has been proven a thousand times over what you think of as space, empty space is no such thing, but filled with energy on a fundamental basis where particles come into and out of existence on an extremely small time scale, close to the Planck limit if time, a slice of time something like 10^minus 35 second. It has been proven all you have to do to see that effect is to have to extremely smooth plates made of almost anything, steel, ceramic, plastic, whatever, just extremely smooth and placed extremely close together, there is a tiny force that will bring them even closer having nothing to do with electromagnetic, strong, weak, Van der Waals, gravitation, the normal forces we see every day. This is a physical force because on the outside walls of those plates, more particles come and go from existence than inside the plates so a tiny push is given from the outside surfaces that causes the plates to try to move together, again having nothing to do with electromagnetic force or any of the others we see all the time. They would tend to be forced together if they were totally neutral electrically and magnetically and a trillion miles from any mass in totally flat space. This is due strictly to particles coming into existence and flashing out of existence on an extremely small time scale and nothing else.
    So that says there is no such thing as empty space, it is already very full of a lot of different kinds of energy.
  9. Joined
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    18 May '13 17:11
    Originally posted by Taoman
    Thank you. πŸ˜‰
    πŸ˜›
  10. Standard memberblack beetle
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    18 May '13 17:25
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I gather you have not heard of the Casimir effect? It has been proven a thousand times over what you think of as space, empty space is no such thing, but filled with energy on a fundamental basis where particles come into and out of existence on an extremely small time scale, close to the Planck limit if time, a slice of time something like 10^minus 35 seco ...[text shortened]... is no such thing as empty space, it is already very full of a lot of different kinds of energy.
    Hi sonhouse, best to you and yours!

    We could probably agree that the quantum observables change over time according to Van der Waals force, and that all the Casimir effect is about is that with it we compute the Van der Waals force between the polarizable molecules of the metallic plates that are used in the experiment and not the vacuum (the so called “empty space” in this thread) in which they are into.
    Probably we could further agree that in the case of quantized fields we always treat a particle as an excited state of an underlying physical field.
    In case you have a different view, kindly please elaborate.

    But if we indeed agree, according to the above and due to the fact that all we observe is merely an underlying physical field in a superposition, methinks it follows that the particle count/ number may change over time solely In this observed field, which is existent solely because the space that it occupies is existent and solely because We are able to observe it the way we decided to observe it😡
  11. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 May '13 17:38
    Originally posted by black beetle
    Hi sonhouse, best to you and yours!

    We could probably agree that the quantum observables change over time according to Van der Waals force, and that all the Casimir effect is about is that with it we compute the Van der Waals force between the polarizable molecules of the metallic plates that are used in the experiment and not the vacuum (the so call ...[text shortened]... pies is existent and solely because We are able to observe it the way we decided to observe it😡
    Here is a Wiki piece on the Casimir effect:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

    Its kind of like if you shake up the surface of the water in a bathtub, some of the peaks will go right out of the tub but on the average you get only the force used by your hand that stirs up the surface. That is the principle of rogue waves on the real ocean where sometimes the sub waves add up to one giant 50 meters or more high where the average might only be one meter high. If you have underlying energy waves in a vacuum, some of those waves will add up to the point where a particle can emerge but only as long as the wave peaks last thus making an instant tiny emergence of a very real particle that also disappears just as quickly. Do that often enough and you get a real physical pressure difference on the outside of the plates as on the inside. That is what I am talking about.There is no changing states here, just a constant coming and going of effervescent particles but for that brief time frame, very real. All due to the mixing of energy levels that can result in the formation of real particles but for a brief amount of time.
  12. Standard memberblack beetle
    Black Beastie
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    18 May '13 19:06
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Here is a Wiki piece on the Casimir effect:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

    Its kind of like if you shake up the surface of the water in a bathtub, some of the peaks will go right out of the tub but on the average you get only the force used by your hand that stirs up the surface. That is the principle of rogue waves on the real ocean wher ...[text shortened]... energy levels that can result in the formation of real particles but for a brief amount of time.
    Edit: "Do that often enough and you get a real physical pressure difference on the outside of the plates as on the inside. That is what I am talking about."

    To me, this is definately a quantum observables change over time according to Van der Waals force; I do perceive the "constant coming and going of effervescent particles" for a very brief time as a change -in relation to the state prior to that "constant coming and going" etc.
  13. Melbourne, Australia
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    19 May '13 00:18
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I gather you have not heard of the Casimir effect? It has been proven a thousand times over what you think of as space, empty space is no such thing, but filled with energy on a fundamental basis where particles come into and out of existence on an extremely small time scale, close to the Planck limit if time, a slice of time something like 10^minus 35 seco ...[text shortened]... is no such thing as empty space, it is already very full of a lot of different kinds of energy.
    I and others explain repeatedly the concept of emptiness in Buddhism is not a nihilistic absolutely no thing there at all. It refers to the ultimate difficulty of isolating anything by itself alone. In that sense it is empty of thingness, where every "thing" is only a "thing", right down to subatomic particles because of other things, forces, conditions etc.. This applies to all our mental imputations as well.
    I am fascinated by the Casimir effect and its implications that you so well describe. To me it is another way of pointing out the errors of a too simplistic view of things, especially space and emptiness. Thanks for that post.
  14. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    19 May '13 03:422 edits
    Originally posted by Taoman
    I and others explain repeatedly the concept of emptiness in Buddhism is not a nihilistic absolutely no thing there at all. It refers to the ultimate difficulty of isolating anything by itself alone. In that sense it is empty of thingness, where every "thing" is only a "thing", right down to subatomic particles because of other things, forces, conditions etc.. ...[text shortened]... rs of a too simplistic view of things, especially space and emptiness. Thanks for that post.
    You are welcome sir. The underpinnings of space, time, and matter are one of my more intense studies, not at any Phd level for sure but I follow the news on the subject. I leave that to my son in law, Gandhi, who HAS a Phd in physics. I also study the effects of gravitational lensing as it applies close to our sun. Most work on gravitational lensing is studies about Einstein Rings, where a distant galaxy focuses light from an even more distant galaxy, allowing a more detailed study of the further away galaxy than could have been done if the intervening galaxy had not been there.

    I am more interested in more local effects, such as the original experiment that showed light bending around our sun that put Einstein on the map.

    I followed the path such light would take to its end, and end it does. Very interesting subject. My son in law is engaging some of his students to take on where my work left off, hopefully a real paper will come out of it.

    I need the services of a real computer graphics artist to illustrate what I found, I am no good at art, only good at guitar and mandolin and such, drawing is a solid F with meπŸ™‚
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
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    20 May '13 04:38
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    You are welcome sir. The underpinnings of space, time, and matter are one of my more intense studies, not at any Phd level for sure but I follow the news on the subject. I leave that to my son in law, Gandhi, who HAS a Phd in physics. I also study the effects of gravitational lensing as it applies close to our sun. Most work on gravitational lensing is stud ...[text shortened]... , I am no good at art, only good at guitar and mandolin and such, drawing is a solid F with meπŸ™‚
    Here is a video from a man that you may be in agreement with:

    Nonsense in Buddhism II (1 of 2) - Life After Death - Rebirth and Reincarnation

    YouTube

    The Instructor
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