1. Standard membersonship
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    26 Jun '15 23:03
    This thread is the positive aspect of the final climax of the ages and of the Bible.

    There are over 1,000 posts over on divegeester's discussion of Hell. Those wanting to focus on eternal damnation - If or If not, I would ask to post on that thread. This thread is dedicated to The New Jerusalem the consummation of God's positive salvation.

    Who then are some of the looker oners, the witnesses of New Jersalem at the conclusion of human history ?

    First those who are not directly participating but will view her.
  2. Standard membersonship
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    26 Jun '15 23:20
    The principalities and powers in the heavenlies in eternity future will be witnesses of New Jerusalem

    " In order that now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenlies the multifarious wisdom of God might be made known through the church,

    According to the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord ..." (Ephesians 3:10,11)


    Some may say, "But this says now and not then."

    No problem. Both the good angels and the bad angels are presently seeing the church gradually being built up into her ultimate consummation. The climax of the building of local churches as golden lampstands is one universal grand golden mountain as a lampstand in Revelation 21 and 22.

    When a man is born again both good angels in the heavenlies and the bad angels in the heavenlies see another integral part of the church universal today and the New Jerusalem as her consummation. If you are born again you are a VIP in the universe.

    One small piece of God's multifarious wisdom is being witnessed by the angelic spectators. The good rulers and authorities are rejoicing for they see God's eternal purpose being fulfilled. The bad rulers and authorities are not rejoicing, but they are spectating also.

    Praise God that God's "multifarious wisdom" is on display as He dispenses His life and nature into the people who become New Jerusalem.

    "To Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus unto all the generations forever and ever. Amen."


    Same chapter - same section of Ephesians. The divine glory is increasing and increasing unto eternity - unto "all the generations forever and ever."
  3. Standard membersonship
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    26 Jun '15 23:291 edit
    The Display in the Ages to Come:

    "That He might display in the ages to come the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." (Eph. 2:7)


    There is developing an eternal display. This display must have spectators. And what will are they and will they spectate? They are seeing the "surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us." who are in Christ Jesus.

    That is the deeper and deeper kindness of God to those brought "organically" into union with Christ Jesus. That is how infinitely kind God can be to the saved. And that display extends on into "the agess to come" ... IE. in the millennium of a thousand years which is to come and the age following. Of course that means the age of the new heaven and the new earth as the new universe in Revelation 21 and 22.

    God's all encompassing kindness, God's surpassing kindness is on display within the regenerated VIPs as sons of God.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jun '15 01:14
    An Outline to the Book of Revelation is below for anyone wanting to access the Recovery Version of the New Testament with its footnotes.

    http://online.recoveryversion.org/Outlines.asp?bookid=66
  5. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jun '15 11:051 edit
    The New Jerusalem is not a physical city to which the saved are going. Rather it is a corporate expression which the saints are becoming. If you believe in the Lord Jesus you are destined to become a living part of New Jerusalem.

    The judging angel was so eager to take John away from the scene of terrible judgment to show him the climax of all God's full salvation - Nw Jerusalem.

    " And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.

    And he carried me away in spirit unto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,

    Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal." (Rev, 21:9-11)


    This was a case of real time travel. John traveled to the edge of eternity future to see all the Christians, including himself, built up into the corporate expression of God mingled with man.

    God had become man so that man might become God in a corporate way - in life and nature but not in His Godhead. The city coming down out of heaven from God is the match of Christ, the counterpart of Christ, Mrs. Christ as His Bride city.

    The universe was created for this marriage.
  6. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jun '15 14:05
    What will the spectators of new Jerusalem spectate?

    They will see a corporate group of people who together express God. Together they look like God and God looks like them.

    The city [bNew Jerusalem[/b] has the appearance of a jasper stone, as clear as crystal (Rev. 21:11). But God Himself has the appearance of jasper in Revelation 4:3a.

    "And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance."


    The jasper colored God on the throne works His life and nature into the city of God causing it to also bear His jasper color appearance. And it says the city has the glory of God therefore:

    " ... the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

    Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal." (Rev. 21:10b,11)


    I believe the jasper here is the deep dark greenish color. That is the color signifying the richness of life. God looks like the richness of life. And the final consummation of His salvation looks also like the deep, eternal richness of life.

    The spectators in and out of the city behold God wrought into man for a union in life of God and humanity.

    This is the grand finale of the ages, the climax of the Bible.
    You and I were created for this purpose.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jun '15 15:591 edit
    Everyone who gets saved is gazed upon by the angelic spectators of the New Jerusalem. They see and rejoice that one more sinner has gotten saved to become a living stone in the living dwelling place of God.

    New American Standard Bible
    "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." (Luke 15:7)


    Christian Standard Bible
    I tell you, in the same way, there is joy in the presence of God's angels over one sinner who repents." (Luke 15:10)
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    27 Jun '15 17:021 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Everyone who gets saved is gazed
    By far the most important thing pertaining to the New Jerusalem is HOW DOES ONE GET IN. You seem to be wrongly assuming that your doctrine of once saved always saved is correct even though there are about a dozen passages by Christ and the Apostles which say otherwise. Unrepentant sin or unforgiven sin or unforgivable sin separates the professed Christian from God, and that denies entry into the New Jerusalem

    Revelation also strongly contradicts this OSAS doctrine. Read it yourself:

    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7-8 KJV)

    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Revelation 22:14-15 KJV)


    Did you read it? THOSE WHO DO HIS COMMANDMENTS WILL ENTER THE GATES OF NEW JERUSALEM. Those who continue with sin WILL NOT ENTER.

    Or put another way HE THAT OVERCOMETH. Who is he that overcometh? John himself explains.

    By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? (1 John 5:2-5 KJV)

    Christ himself gave seven examples of those who 'overcame' in the form of the seven churches. In Rev 2 and 3 in every case Christ looked at the following to determine if they could enter into the New Jerusalem :

    THEIR WORKS
    THEIR SINS
    THEIR ABILITY TO REPENT AND TO CHANGE.

    Christ was very clear that if they did not change and persisted in sin they would not receive the reward of eternal life. Nobody gets in by just professing that they believe in Christ. Their works and their conduct, their life in Christ determines if they qualify for entry into the New Jerusalem.

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches
  9. Standard memberchaney3
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    27 Jun '15 17:36
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    By far the most important thing pertaining to the New Jerusalem is HOW DOES ONE GET IN. You seem to be wrongly assuming that your doctrine of once saved always saved is correct even though there are about a dozen passages by Christ and the Apostles which say otherwise. Unrepentant sin or unforgiven sin or unforgivable sin separates the professed Christian fr ...[text shortened]... w Jerusalem.

    [b]He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches
    [/b]
    Paul wrote in Romans chapter 7.....verses 14-25, that as humans, we are trapped in the flesh, and no matter how hard we try, we will continue to sin. It is apparent that Jesus is the only human to not commit sin. Even when we humans are aware that God despises sin, we seem to be helpless.

    Good question though......how does one get into heaven?
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    27 Jun '15 18:47
    Originally posted by chaney3
    Paul wrote in Romans chapter 7.....verses 14-25, that as humans, we are trapped in the flesh, and no matter how hard we try, we will continue to sin. It is apparent that Jesus is the only human to not commit sin. Even when we humans are aware that God despises sin, we seem to be helpless.

    Good question though......how does one get into heaven?
    The question of how does one get into Gods Kingdom was answered by Christ and all the Apostles. Christ said "love God and your neighbour as yourself". Plus in Matt 25, Christ said that in the day of judgment those who did not show love to those around them would not get into Gods Kingdom.

    Im not seeing in Romans 7 where Paul said the 'no matter how hard we try' part. Yes people will continue to sin but Christ will know how to judge and he was very clear and specific about who gets through the gate.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jun '15 19:301 edit
    Originally posted by chaney3
    Good question though......how does one get into heaven?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This thread is not about defending against Arminianism which is the only subject matter Rajk999 is able to talk about - a denial of salvation by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8).

    This thread is also not about "going to heaven." I wrote before that the New Jerusalem is not a physical place the saved are going but an entity the saved are BECOMMING .

    This thread was intended to be mainly about the spectators of this corporate entity which consummates the ages -

    The Wife of the Lamb.
    The Bride of the Lamb.
    The holy city which comes down out of heaven from God.

    I will not be letting Rajk999 hijack this thread to talk about the ONLY thing Rajk999 CAN ever write about - Arminianism and his debates about OSAS which are in error.
    ===================================================

    Try to stick to Spectators of New Jerusalem please.
  12. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jun '15 19:451 edit
    Other Spectators:

    Of course the sons of God who are being conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son. This He Himself petitioned the Father for.

    "Father, concerning that which you have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24)


    This whole chapter 17 is Christ's mighty prayer to the Father. And its answer BY the Father is the New Jerusalem seen as a sign in Revelation 21 and 22.

    There the God incarnate as a man, having lived, having been crucified, having been raised, having ascended and been exalted, and having come into the saved as the life giving Spirit is Godman for eternity with His brothers.

    They are spectators not only of their own deification and glorification but of their Elder Brother. He is the lamp within Whom is the light of God shining out.

    "And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon that they should shine in it, for the glory of God illumines it, and its lamp is the Lamb. " (Rev. 21:23)


    The LAMB of the city is the LAMB.
    He is the LAMB - LAMP.

    The Redeemer - "the Lamb" as the exalted and eternally glorified Godman, is the container, the vessel holding the Divine Light of the uncreated eternal Triune God. And the many sons, as Godmen, who are the recipients of His redeeming and His salvation are the indwelling spectators beholding His glory.

    Since the Son is eternal and is God Himself, the Father loved Him before the foundation of the world. Now that He is the resurrected and glorified man He is exalted again with the glory that He knew "before the foundation of the world " (John 17:24) .
  13. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    27 Jun '15 19:53
    Originally posted by sonship
    [b] Good question though......how does one get into heaven?
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This thread is not about defending against Arminianism which is the only subject matter Rajk999 is able to talk about - Arminianism.

    This thread is also not about "going to heaven." I wrote before th ...[text shortened]... ==================================

    Try to stick to Spectators of New Jerusalem please.[/b]
    God creates the world, but allows man to make his own way in creation.
    A mother gives birth to her child, but does not own the child she creates.

    In the same vein, we may create a forum thread, but we can not control it, we do not have ownership of it, just because we are its creator.

    The first 7 posts in this thread Sonship were all your own. To me that speaks more of 'spamming' of your viewpoint than a genuine desire to enter into dialogue with others. Thread contributors will usually try and stay on track, but you can not dictate thread parameters and tell people what they can and cannot post.
  14. Account suspended
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    27 Jun '15 20:152 edits
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    God creates the world, but allows man to make his own way in creation.
    A mother gives birth to her child, but does not own the child she creates.

    In the same vein, we may create a forum thread, but we can not control it, we do not have ownership of it, just because we are its creator.

    The first 7 posts in this thread Sonship were all your own. ...[text shortened]... track, but you can not dictate thread parameters and tell people what they can and cannot post.
    Welcome to the wonderful world of one of sonships legendary rambling monologues. One would think that he might do better to study the manner in which Christ taught, posing view point questions, with simple succinct truths and everyday common illustrations which helped the listener draw their own conclusions. But alas no, we are subject to his edicts and decrees!
  15. SubscriberSuzianne
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    27 Jun '15 20:38
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    but you can not dictate thread parameters and tell people what they can and cannot post.
    Isn't this what you are trying to do?
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