Spirituality and the Existence of Spirits

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I subscribe most closely to the hindu religon "on the outside". I like bhudism for "the inside".
I am not any religon, but if I were born in India, I would in all likeliness be a Hindu.
The only reason I am not a Hindu is that I dont know enough about it and I would do a disservice to that faith system if I were to speak as an adherent.

So there is at least one regular reader who enjoys a Hindu perspective 🙂 Thnks rvsakhadeo

All faiths speak the same language,all faiths are equal since all of them show various ways to realize the Ultimate Reality/Truth/God.
Incidentally,Hindu philosophy comprising of 6 ways of viewing the Reality ( the 6 "Darshan"s or 6 views) is a very sophisticated step by step approach to realize God. In my view it is far more complete than Buddhism.By the way,the first view of the 6 views is that of Hedonism. Enjoy life,don't bother about heaven,hell or God,simply eat, drink and be merry because this is the only life and body you will ever get. This may well appeal to our atheist brothers!

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not sure if a number can be said to exist. Every pattern can have instance (whose components exist and thus form the pattern) or can be thought of in the abstract. But does the abstract, which is independent of any given instance or time or physical location, really exist?
And what about emotions when taken in the abstract? Do love or hate exist as abstracts or only as instances?

they must exist in some form, they're there!

Originally posted by josephw
[b And what is even more profound is that I know there is a voice inside every man's head that tells him that that is true. If he will listen.

how do you know your interpeting the voice right (assuming its existance)

Originally posted by daisychainsaw
they must exist in some form, they're there!

twitehead will want proof. Scientific proof.
I have only my own experiences to offer on this subject, which can easily be explained away.
It's one of those things where you have to be there ..

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
All faiths speak the same language,all faiths are equal since all of them show various ways to realize the Ultimate Reality/Truth/God.
Incidentally,Hindu philosophy comprising of 6 ways of viewing the Reality ( the 6 "Darshan"s or 6 views) is a very sophisticated step by step approach to realize God. In my view it is far more complete than Buddhism.By th ...[text shortened]... is is the only life and body you will ever get. This may well appeal to our atheist brothers!

I think I've realized the first view alright 😉
Whats no.2?

Originally posted by josephw
That is precisely how it is known.

But that contradicts what you said earlier.

There is no other rational/independent/logical explanation.
Of course there is.

And what is even more profound is that I know there is a voice inside every man's head that tells him that that is true. If he will listen.
Why is that profound, when you just made it up? You cannot possibly know by direct experience or even logical deduction. So either you are claiming God told you, or you are making it up. Which is it?

Originally posted by daisychainsaw
they must exist in some form, they're there!

No, they aren't 'there'. Abstract concepts are independent of space and time and do not have a location.

Originally posted by JS357
There is much talk on this forum about the existence of thing. (One thing in particular gets most of the talk.)

What sorts of existence are there, and what presumptions does each sort make?

For example, a chair's existing evokes a presumption of a physical space, and a duration in time, or a sensible (sense-able) object.

The number 2's existing evokes ...[text shortened]... he concept of existence apply to a god (or God, if you wish?) Or to any spiritual being?

I hope you will read this ! You are talking about two different worlds i.e. the world of objects and the world of ideas. The world of objects comprises of objects each having a name and an appearance-which is what Hindu philosophy calls a Naam-Rupatmak Vishwa i.e. a world of objects having names and appearances. Hindu philosophy says that its existence is considered by us to be static and permanent when it is actually dynamic and changeable. It further says that it appears constant and static by Maya - a delusion. It is also an expressed version of Ultimate Reality,which actually lies unexpressed just behind this Maya. As regards the world of ideas-if these are actually names of objects or otherwise have denotations/representations directly or indirectly-they will belong to the Mayic world. The only idea which has no denotation is God/Ultimate Reality/Truth.

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, they aren't 'there'. Abstract concepts are independent of space and time and do not have a location.

I dont think she is talking about abstract concepts

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I think I've realized the first view alright 😉
Whats no.2?

The six Darshan s are organised in three pairs i) Nyaya and Vaisheshik ii)Sankhya and Yog iii) Poorva Mimamsa and Uttara Mimamsa.
Hedonism as propounded by a thinker called Charvaka is actually a sub system of Nyaya.
Nyaya is a system of Logic leading to rational investigation of truth by i) direct perception ii) inference based on direct perception iii) testimony of trustworthy persons. Hedonists led by Charvak believe only in direct perception.He rejects God.
Nyaya and Vaisheshik systems propounded by Gautam and Kanad analyse the Universe from an objective point of view.The systems divide the Universe in external and internal categories.The external categories are Time,Space,Matter and the internal categories are Mind,Soul etc.Physical universe is said to be composed of minute particles or Kana s. The innumerable existing souls are the experiencers of pleasure and pain etc. with God as the perfect soul who is recognised as Omniscient and Omnipotent,who brings all the categories together to form the Universe. This is the -so to speak- second step up from Charvak.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I dont think she is talking about abstract concepts

My mistake. She replied to my whole post and I assumed she was replying to the part about abstracts.
However, love and hate are also only abstract except where specific instances of them are represented in the real world, and then each instance exists, just as the number two can exist when represented as 2 apples, but does not exists physically in the abstract.

Originally posted by JS357
In my religious training I was taught that God reveals truths to us by various kinds of revelation. One is special revelation, that is, by supernatural means, which includes miracles, scripture, and direct revelation, such as Moses getting the 10 commandments. Another is general revelation, which includes observation of nature, history and human life, philosop ...[text shortened]... ute. Is this your general understanding, or are you speaking only of seeking special revelation?

Your religious training is similar to the view stated in the ancient Upanishads of Hinduism that God will reveal himself/herself/itself to you when he/she/it pleases to to do so.
No amount of logical study of scriptures etc. ( Dnyan Yog ),good deeds ( Karma Yog ),devotion ( Bhakti Yog ) will bring you the Grace of God till he/she/it decides to to bless you.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Thanks for the response ! I was beginning to feel that Hindu thinking is not even being acknowledged on this thread for whatever reasons.
Incidentally in the same Sukta,it is further stated that God comprises of everything that has happened in the past or will happen in future,thus imparting the dimension of Time also to God ( may be it is supposed to ...[text shortened]... including this planet,Mankind and various other living beings and the various seasons and so on.

I would like to acknowledge that Hindu thinking is quite advanced in the areas I am exploring. I always wonder whether I am able to actually get the true meaning of what is said. I think other people here are better at probing into that, than I am.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I hope you will read this ! You are talking about two different worlds i.e. the world of objects and the world of ideas. The world of objects comprises of objects each having a name and an appearance-which is what Hindu philosophy calls a Naam-Rupatmak Vishwa i.e. a world of objects having names and appearances. Hindu philosophy says that its existence is ...[text shortened]... belong to the Mayic world. The only idea which has no denotation is God/Ultimate Reality/Truth.

If every idea except that one has a denotation, then it follows from what you say that every idea except that one is Mayic. Is that the case?

You mention a world of objects and a world of ideas. I want to ask if there a third world, or a world that includes ideas as a subset, that could be called the world of thoughts. I will mention two examples: the thought that would be expressed by saying "Ouch," and the thought that would be expressed by saying I love you." OK, a third and fourth: Thinking about a red rose, with my eyes closed. Thinking about the red rose I just looked at, with my eyes closed.

The thoughts expressed by these words (the expressions not being the thoughts) persist only in the mind of an individual, and then, only while "being thought." Where do they belong in Hindu philosophy? It feels like something very basic is being hinted at when I think about this.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
The six Darshan s are organised in three pairs i) Nyaya and Vaisheshik ii)Sankhya and Yog iii) Poorva Mimamsa and Uttara Mimamsa.
Hedonism as propounded by a thinker called Charvaka is actually a sub system of Nyaya.
Nyaya is a system of Logic leading to rational investigation of truth by i) direct perception ii) inference based on direct perception ii ...[text shortened]... categories together to form the Universe. This is the -so to speak- second step up from Charvak.

Awesome