1. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 12:29
    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/
  2. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 12:35
    Originally posted by josephw
    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/
    Doesn't work for me.

    The question "Absolute moral laws does not exist" (Yes) leads to "Molesting children for fun is absolutely wrong" (Yes) leads back to "Absolute moral laws does not exist" and I'm stuck there.

    So it doesn't work for me. This is not a proof for the existance of god.
  3. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 12:48
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Doesn't work for me.

    The question "Absolute moral laws does not exist" (Yes) leads to "Molesting children for fun is absolutely wrong" (Yes) leads back to "Absolute moral laws does not exist" and I'm stuck there.

    So it doesn't work for me. This is not a proof for the existance of god.
    So molesting children for fun is absolutely wrong, is not an absolute moral law?

    I think you failed the test! 😉
  4. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 13:03
    Originally posted by josephw
    So molesting children for fun is absolutely wrong, is not an absolute moral law?

    I think you failed the test! 😉
    Did you ever hear the analogy of a child sitting on the lap of a parent trying to slap the parent's face? The child can only get close enough to do so by being situated on the parent lap.


    Someone compared this to atheistic arguments against God. You have to be close enough to God by His moral laws in order to be able to reach Him to deny Him.
  5. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 13:14
    Originally posted by josephw
    So molesting children for fun is absolutely wrong, is not an absolute moral law?

    I think you failed the test! 😉
    I don't think there are absolute moral laws. Every moral law is subject to the culture.

    In my culture female circumcision is awfully morally wrong, but in other cultures it is perfectly alright and within tradition. So what is a absolute moral law in one place of the earth doesn't imply that it is alright in another place.

    No, I think the test itself failed.
  6. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 13:24
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I don't think there are absolute moral laws. Every moral law is subject to the culture.

    In my culture female circumcision is awfully morally wrong, but in other cultures it is perfectly alright and within tradition. So what is a absolute moral law in one place of the earth doesn't imply that it is alright in another place.

    No, I think the test itself failed.
    Every moral law is subject to the culture.


    Is this also a moral law which is subject to culture too ?
  7. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 13:25
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I don't think there are absolute moral laws. Every moral law is subject to the culture.

    In my culture female circumcision is awfully morally wrong, but in other cultures it is perfectly alright and within tradition. So what is a absolute moral law in one place of the earth doesn't imply that it is alright in another place.

    No, I think the test itself failed.
    Are you absolutely sure?
  8. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 13:29
    Is there a culture on earth in which cowardice is considered more desireable than bravery?

    Which culture?


    Is there a culture on earth in which laziness is held in higher esteem than hard work ?

    What about a culture where unfaithfulness is a more noble trait than faithfulness ?
  9. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 13:331 edit
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Is there a culture on earth in which cowardice is considered more desireable than bravery?

    Which culture?


    Is there a culture on earth in which laziness is held in higher esteem than hard work ?

    What about a culture where unfaithfulness is a more noble trait than faithfulness ?
    The thing is, is that where ever man is you will probably find just such a culture! 😛
  10. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 13:42
    Originally posted by josephw
    The thing is, is that where ever man is you will probably find just such a culture! 😛
    I think where man has a society you will find there some cowards, some slothful, and some unfaithful.

    But the general attitude of that culture is that these are undesireable characteristics.

    Their standard is set high. The actual behavior of some of the culture is below that standard. And the culture has negative reinforcing social norms to let people know that they SHOULD do better.
  11. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 13:44
    Joseph, I thought Peter Kreeft's article on Design is pretty good so far.

    Thanks for the link.
  12. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 14:12
    Originally posted by josephw
    Are you absolutely sure?
    Yes, in my culture female circumcision is awfully morally wrong, I am dead sure. How can you think otherwise?

    This is a perfect example of what can be an absolute moral law in one place and totally alright in another place. This proves that there is no absolute moral law that is constant thrugh times and places.

    The test fails. In the very instant that you think that you can prove the existance of god, religion turns into science, and this is an oxymoron in the first place.
  13. Donationbbarr
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    07 Jun '08 20:50
    Originally posted by josephw
    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/
    I received the following message:

    To reach this page you had to acknowledge that immaterial, universal, unchanging laws of logic, mathematics, science, and absolute morality exist. Universal, immaterial, unchanging laws are necessary for rational thinking to be possible. Universal, immaterial, unchanging laws cannot be accounted for if the universe was random or only material in nature.

    Of course, the fallacy is the inference from the claim that the universe is neither random nor wholly material to the conclusion that God exists. Are you on a quest to find religious idiots on the internet and report their "findings"?
  14. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 21:17
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Is there a culture on earth in which cowardice is considered more desireable than bravery?

    Which culture?


    Is there a culture on earth in which laziness is held in higher esteem than hard work ?

    What about a culture where unfaithfulness is a more noble trait than faithfulness ?
    Cowardice is more desirable if it saves your family.
  15. Joined
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    07 Jun '08 22:16
    Originally posted by Sushill
    Cowardice is more desirable if it saves your family.
    I failed the test. I had to exit after I said laws of science do not exist.
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