Test Thread

Originally posted by amannion
Finally, many seem to resort to the position (and you've done this yourself JW) that the existence of the beauty and wonder around us is, in and of itself, proof of the existence of a supernatural creator.
That may be compelling to someone who already believes in a supernatural creator, but appears as an astonishingly irrational perspective to someone who doesn't.

Perhaps to you the universe in all its splendor and wonder, is nothing spectacular. It's a bit bleak to see things that way but if that's how you see it, then it explains some things.

And based upon what you just said and your high probability of a bleak perspective, this little metaphorical argument shouldn't do you any good; but perhaps some others will glean something of value from it.

I suppose that--having the point of view you have expressed-- if you were taking a stroll through the woods and came across an easel with a canvas on it; and on the canvas was a beautiful, intricate painting; and sitting on the ground was a wooden palette with a few dozen paints on it of various colors, a few used paint brushes, and several jars half-filled with different-colored paint.... you would conclude that the beautiful painting just fell into place through some random action like a windstorm that whirled the paint brushes through the air, dipping them in the paints and stroking them on the canvas.

Does that just about cover it?

I prefer my Gillette.😕

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
I prefer my Gillette.😕

Im still using a Mach 3, I guess I better get with the times and upgrade to what is it now... 5 blades?

Originally posted by sumydid
Im still using a Mach 3, I guess I better get with the times and upgrade to what is it now... 5 blades?

I'm an old fart. Still using one blade, but with two sides.

Originally posted by sumydid
Perhaps to you the universe in all its splendor and wonder, is nothing spectacular. It's a bit bleak to see things that way but if that's how you see it, then it explains some things.

And based upon what you just said and your high probability of a bleak perspective, this little metaphorical argument shouldn't do you any good; but perhaps some others wil ...[text shortened]... dipping them in the paints and stroking them on the canvas.

Does that just about cover it?

Whether the universe was created by God or not isn't so important to me, but it seems real important to others. I know it was created by "God", but you wont catch "him" in the act 🙂. You cant prove it.My idea of "God" is not one of a separate entity that hovers over us and does this and that. The god idea is a very powerful tool for attempting to communicate that which is impossible to communicate properly. It is a powerful and indispensible word. However "God" is simply All. As soon as we stop trying to give 'It' human characteristics (of forming and tendencies to form), and focus on the true meaning of "God" , the way becomes clear. (The true meaning is found by the true seeker, who resides deep in everyone's heart. It's basically a PROCESS OF ELIMINATION)

But you can see many things happening "out there",(ie. space, our atmosphere, in the wild or what's left of it), that would lend support to an intelligent force creating it. Almost like this intelligent force were looking out for us humans.
There are a great many "accidents" that have all come together to give us our modern day man and his/her culture and societies.
I think we all need to heed the call of our hearts, which seeks truth, and seeks to lead us out of this dimension back/forward into a new, permanent dimension - not prone to physical laws. (Heaven).

Originally posted by amannion
My response would be no - no such being exists.

A lot of people seem to be happy with the argument that, the universe exists therefore it must have come into existence at some time. Since it must have come into existence, and we don't know of any natural process that could create a universe, then there must exist some being who could, and did, create it. reator, but appears as an astonishingly irrational perspective to someone who doesn't.

Scientist have already admitted that the universe had a beginning so you
can dismiss that assumption. I still think the Law of Occam's Razor is the
best way to go on this. A lot less assumptions.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Whether the universe was created by God or not isn't so important to me, but it seems real important to others. I know it was created by "God", but you wont catch "him" in the act 🙂. You cant prove it.My idea of "God" is not one of a separate entity that hovers over us and does this and that. The god idea is a very powerful tool for attempting to commu ward into a new, permanent dimension - not prone to physical laws. (Heaven).

That is really odd to hear someone say.

On the one hand you know God created the universe. Cool. But on the other hand it's not even important to you whether or not God created the universe.

The implications are astronomical. If God did not create the universe then the bible is a complete sham, the God of the bible doesn't exist, there is no judgment, and the 2+ trilliion Christians should eat, drink, and be merry.

The rest of what you said makes it pretty clear you're a Pantheist. Correct?

Originally posted by josephw
This is a test to see if any can stay on topic, and to see who can use objective reason and logic without resorting to innuendo, insults, personal attacks and other emotionally driven invectives. No resolution to the topic is required. Just sincere, honest and respectful debate. Off topic replies will be considered as an admission of defeat.

Good luck! He ...[text shortened]... e for, and the creator of all that exists, whether it be visible or invisible, know or unknown?

The test doesn't look good Joe. 😕

Originally posted by RJHinds
Scientist have already admitted that the universe had a beginning so you
can dismiss that assumption. I still think the Law of Occam's Razor is the
best way to go on this. A lot less assumptions.

Occam's Razor isn't a law, just a principle that can be useful in circumstances where multiple explanations are possible.
So, here's two explanations for the universe:
1. It was created by a supernatural being.
2. It came to exist naturally through some process we don't yet understand.

Occam's Razor suggests that we choose the simpler explanation. Two is obvious since it requires no need for the supernatural.
Allow a supernatural explanation and anything is possible - werewolves, fairies, ghosts, vampires, and of course, gods, many, many gods.

Originally posted by sumydid
Perhaps to you the universe in all its splendor and wonder, is nothing spectacular. It's a bit bleak to see things that way but if that's how you see it, then it explains some things.

And based upon what you just said and your high probability of a bleak perspective, this little metaphorical argument shouldn't do you any good; but perhaps some others wil ...[text shortened]... dipping them in the paints and stroking them on the canvas.

Does that just about cover it?

I don't think I recall calling the universe bleak.
I don't need to believe that supernatural beings exist in order to wonder at the beauty of this entire universe that exists around us.
If I came across a canvas on an easel I would surmise that it was painted since I have much experience with paintings and canvas and easels. I also have some experience with the physics of the world around us - I'm a physics teacher - and I know that wind does not paint canvases.
But I also know that the only example I have of a universe is the one I'm in. I can't go to a gallery and look at hundreds or thousands of universes, I have only one. So, it would be a little premature of me to conclude, with just this one example to go by, anything about its origins, don't you think?

Originally posted by ChessPraxis
The test doesn't look good Joe. 😕

Neither do the results. 😉

Originally posted by josephw
This is a test to see if any can stay on topic, and to see who can use objective reason and logic without resorting to innuendo, insults, personal attacks and other emotionally driven invectives. No resolution to the topic is required. Just sincere, honest and respectful debate. Off topic replies will be considered as an admission of defeat.

Good luck! He ...[text shortened]... e for, and the creator of all that exists, whether it be visible or invisible, know or unknown?

Since none of us can answer this question, I find it baffling why so many of us choose to believe one way or the other.

Originally posted by sumydid
That is really odd to hear someone say.

On the one hand you know God created the universe. Cool. But on the other hand it's not even important to you whether or not God created the universe.

The implications are astronomical. If God did not create the universe then the bible is a complete sham, the God of the bible doesn't exist, there is no judgmen ...[text shortened]... nd be merry.

The rest of what you said makes it pretty clear you're a Pantheist. Correct?

Non-dualist.

I prefer to dwell on the matters here and now.
Whether God created the universe pales in significance as to what we as humans must do keep this planet alive.


Anyway, there is no consensus oh who or what God is,(except among christians), so does it really matter?
The conditions were set up in the form of the Earth for humans and animals and plants to thrive. Whether there is your version or God or my version,doesn't really matter. (Or no God)

Is what Is.