1. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Jul '05 07:19
    I stumbled upon an article written by an Atheist called W.O. Saunders.

    "I would like to introduce you to one of the most lonesomest and unhappiest individuals on earth. I am talking about the man who does not believe in God. I can introduce you to such a man because I myself am one, and in introducing myself, you shall have an introduction to the Atheist, Agnostic and skeptic in your own neighborhood, for he is everywhere in the land. You will be surprised to learn that the agnostic envies your faith in God, your settled belief in a heaven after life, and your blessed assurance that you will meet with your loved ones in an afterlife where there will be neither sadness nor pain. He would give anything to be able to embrace that faith and be comforted by it. For him there is only the grave and the persistence of matter. After the grave all he can see is the disintegration of the protoplasm and the psychoplasm of which my body and personality are composed. But in this materialist view, I find neither ecstasy not happiness.

    The atheist and agnostic may face life with a smile and a heroic attitude. He may put up a brave front, but he is not happy. He stands in awe and reverence before the vastness and majesty of the universe, knowing not whence he came or why. He is appalled at the stupendousness of space and the infinitude of time, humiliated by the infinite smallness of himself, cognizant of his own frailty, weakness and brevity. Certainly he sometimes yearns for a staff on which to lean. He too carries a cross. For him, this earth is but a tricky raft adrift in the unfathomable waters of eternity with no horizon in sight. His heart aches for every precious life with him upon the raft - drifting, drifting drifting, whither no one knows.”
  2. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Jul '05 07:53
    Originally posted by LemonJello
    i don't recall ever asking W.O. Fullofshit to act as my proxy when it comes to describing my state of mind or quality of life.

    sounds to me like you got an introduction to the poor miserable pathetic wretch that is W.O. Fullofshit, but not an introduction to anything much else. if you are reading such articles to expand your vocabulary, here's a g ...[text shortened]... ctionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
    Heroic Attitude and brave front huh?
  3. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Jul '05 08:031 edit
    Whether you agree or disagree with him is rather immaterial as you have so kindly pointed out.

    But what purpose is there then to life, adrift on that raft?
  4. Cosmos
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    20 Jul '05 08:05
    Originally posted by Halitose
    I stumbled upon an article written by an Atheist called W.O. Saunders.

    "I would like to introduce you to one of the most lonesomest and unhappiest individuals on earth. I am talking about the man who does not believe in God. I can introduce you to such a man because I myself am one, and in introducing myself, you shall have an introduction to the Atheis ...[text shortened]... every precious life with him upon the raft - drifting, drifting drifting, whither no one knows.”
    I see what Mr Saunders is intimating.

    Ignorance is bliss they say, and to live on mistakenly believing in God and life after death must be comforting.
    Such ignorance may be bliss, but once you realise the truth that God, souls, heaven and hell are just inventions of early man with no foundation in fact, then it is impossible to be a theist.

    Ignorance is bliss, but it is also impossible to truly regain ignorance!
  5. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Jul '05 09:14
    Originally posted by howardgee
    I see what Mr Saunders is intimating.

    Ignorance is bliss they say, and to live on mistakenly believing in God and life after death must be comforting.
    Such ignorance may be bliss, but once you realise the truth that God, souls, heaven and hell are just inventions of early man with no foundation in fact, then it is impossible to be a theist.

    Ignorance is bliss, but it is also impossible to truly regain ignorance!
    No life after death? How do you explain the thousands of people who have been resuscitated after death all claim to the contrary. And they all claim the same concept of life after death. Even from their diverse backgrounds, they all point in the same direction.

    There is ignorance here, but i'd be your own.
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    20 Jul '05 09:391 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    No life after death? How do you explain the thousands of people who have been resuscitated after death all claim to the contrary. And they all claim the same concept of life after death. Even from their diverse backgrounds, they all point ...[text shortened]... ame direction.

    There is ignorance here, but i'd be your own.
    I don't know how many times I have heard this claim and it still amazes me how people who present this view cannot accept what seems to me a glaringly obvious answer to this. When 'temporary death' occurs and that's all it is, it's not real death, not irreversible brain death, it is merely a temporary cessation of the other major functions of the body (heart lungs etc.) from which a recovery can be made, people report seeing similar things. What they really have encountered is an altered state of consciousness bought about by a lack of oxygen etc. There is no evidence to suggest that it has anything to do with spirituality of any sort. Why is it similar between patients? Umm... aren't we all human? Shouldn't we experience similar things under similar situations? Our bodies all function according to the same biochemical rules and I find it staggering that some believe that these 'near death' experiences, are anything more than hallucinatons bought on by the situation.
  7. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Jul '05 09:52
    Originally posted by Starrman
    I don't know how many times I have heard this claim and it still amazes me how people who present this view cannot accept what seems to me a glaringly obvious answer to this. When 'temporary death' occurs and that's all it is, it's not real death, not irreversible brain death, it is merely a temporary cessation of the other major functions of the body ...[text shortened]... ese 'near death' experiences, are anything more than hallucinatons bought on by the situation.
    Uh huh... Many of these people had been pronounced clinically dead, not only cessation of the major organs, but also the brain. Your explanation that all humans hallucinate the same thing in the same circumstances is as ludicrous as saying that everybody will react the same with a gun stuck to their head while popping LSD. Methinks there is more to it than meets your superficial understanding of the subject.
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    20 Jul '05 10:06
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Uh huh... Many of these people had been pronounced clinically dead, not only cessation of the major organs, but also the brain. Your explanation that all humans hallucinate the same thing in the same circumstances is as ludicrous as saying that everybody will react the same with a gun stuck to their head while popping LSD. Methinks there is more to it than meets your superficial understanding of the subject.
    Can you provide evidence of resuscitation following brain death? As far as I'm aware, brain death means you're outta here, you ain't coming back, dead, gone, kaput. If you are suggesting that it is possible to reverse brain death you are mistaken. As to my claim on the hallucinations, it is not ludicrous at all, this is not a conscious hallucination which positive mental processes like conscious thought, sight, smell, touch etc. can influence. It is a sub conscious hallucination, a much simpler state and one that is not governed by any other stimuli than those biochemical processes in place at the time. It is feasable to say that this hallucination would be similar between people in a state of near death as they are likely to be in similar biochemical states. And to call my understanding of the subject superficial is a joke, I doubt whether you know anything about the physiological processes involved with death, let alone life.
  9. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Jul '05 10:302 edits
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Can you provide evidence of resuscitation following brain death? As far as I'm aware, brain death means you're outta here, you ain't coming back, dead, gone, kaput. If you are suggesting that it is possible to reverse brain death you ...[text shortened]... t the physiological processes involved with death, let alone life.
    Allow me to allude to just one case out of many. This is a case that has detailed medical and scientific analysis to back it up, by a cardiologist Dr. Michael Sabom.

    A certain patient Pam Reynolds underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that threatened her life. This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it (Dr. Robert A Solomon), required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life.

    Three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

    She gives a very detailed account of how she observed the operation occuring from outside her body.

    Let me quote Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs who describes the state of the brain during such an experience:

    "The brain isn’t functioning. It’s not there. It’s destroyed. It’s abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don’t know what’s happening and the brain isn’t working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won’t remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences, you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."



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    20 Jul '05 10:551 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Allow me to allude to just one case out of many. This is a case that has detailed medical and scientific analysis to back it up, by a cardiologist Dr. Michael Sabom.

    A certain patient Pam Reynolds underwent a rare operation to remove ...[text shortened]... n any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."
    This is not irreversible brain death. Here is some information which may help:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_death

    The operation you have cited is amazing, but the fact is that under such low temperatures, the brain can survive nearly an hour without damage. In the words of your own linked website:

    The notion that the body can survive without circulation at very low temperatures arose from cases in which children who have lost consciousness in very cold water have been revive after hours of submersion. When the body is cooled, it needs much less energy, and the brain can survive longer without oxygen.

    The goal of the aneurysm operation is to cheat death for minutes, allowing surgeons time to complete the delicate operation. At a body temperature of 60 degrees, almost 40 degrees below normal, the brain can survive an hour before damage.


    Dr Fenwick's statement is silly, if the brain really wasn't there, dead, not functioning 'destroyed' as he puts it, then it could not possibly experience anything, it would be a dead lump of matter. It could not store the memory of a NDE. If it is still functioning then it is just as likely to be a biochemical hallucination as anything else. And fainting is entirely different to brain death.

    I shall say again, there is no proof of life after death. NDE's are just that, NEAR death experiences, not evidence for the afterlife. .
  11. Standard memberPalynka
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    20 Jul '05 11:08
    Maybe Halitose is trying to say that some medical professionals perform miracles on a regular basis. 🙄

    Sainthood is a science.
  12. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Jul '05 11:221 edit
    The case is still that the brain is dead, maybe not irreversibly, because the patient came alive.

    In this state of unconsciousness where there are no brainwaves. Could you please explain the physics of a hallucination without brainwaves.

    Sorry! My claims are from a book not a site. Just a mere technicallity, but still shows the type of conclusions you are capable of jumping to.
  13. Standard memberPalynka
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    20 Jul '05 11:29
    Originally posted by Halitose
    The case is still that the brain is dead, maybe not irreversibly, because the patient came alive.

    In this state of unconsciousness where there are no brainwaves. Could you please explain the physics of a hallucination without brainwaves.
    It happens in tenths of seconds after reanimation but the patient believes it took longer.

    It's a bit like a deja-vu, which is explainable neurophysiologically. The brain imprints short-term memories into long-term memories, creating a "longer" memory in a fraction of a second.
  14. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Jul '05 11:32
    I also find it pleasantly surprising that you seem more knowledgable than qualified doctors and scientists who have studied this phenomenon first hand for many years. Perhaps you should enlighten them and put a stop to this riduculous facade of pseudo-science.
  15. Standard memberHalitose
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    20 Jul '05 11:34
    Originally posted by Palynka
    It happens in tenths of seconds after reanimation but the patient believes it took longer.

    It's a bit like a deja-vu, which is explainable neurophysiologically. The brain imprints short-term memories into long-term memories, creating a "longer" memory in a fraction of a second.
    How do you then explain that the patient can with this so-called "hallucination" explain in minute detail what happened in the room during this stage of being brain dead?
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