1. Maryland
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    29 Oct '09 18:49
    If everything requires a cause, what was the cause of god? If god does not require a cause and has always been here, then why can't the universe have always been here also?
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    29 Oct '09 19:58
    Originally posted by 667joe
    If everything requires a cause, what was the cause of god? If god does not require a cause and has always been here, then why can't the universe have always been here also?
    See the "Origin of God" thread.
  3. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    29 Oct '09 20:18
    Originally posted by 667joe
    If everything requires a cause, what was the cause of god? If god does not require a cause and has always been here, then why can't the universe have always been here also?
    There's no logical reason per se why the Universe might not be eternal. The only problem is that there are a number of things about the Universe that make it look unlikely that it is. Decaying energy / heat , the Big bang (suggestive of a beginning) etc.

    The Big bang alone leads one to suspect that the Universe had a "start" or beginning. I find it hard to think of something that has a beginning not having a cause of some sort. However , even a causeless Universe that had a beginning would not have "always been here".
  4. Maryland
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    29 Oct '09 20:31
    You have avoided the problem. If every thing requires a beginning, how did god get here?
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    30 Oct '09 00:56
    Originally posted by 667joe
    You have avoided the problem. If every thing requires a beginning, how did god get here?
    God didn't have a beginning.

    How hard is that to figure out?
  6. Melbourne, Australia
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    30 Oct '09 01:04
    Originally posted by josephw
    God didn't have a beginning.

    How hard is that to figure out?
    Well it's not hard to assume. But how did you 'figure it out'?
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    30 Oct '09 01:07
    Originally posted by amannion
    Well it's not hard to [b]assume. But how did you 'figure it out'?[/b]
    You don't.

    If there is a God, as defined by Himself, then He has no beginning.
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    30 Oct '09 01:14
    Originally posted by 667joe
    You have avoided the problem. If every thing requires a beginning, how did god get here?
    Anything that is immaterial does not need a beginning, such as logic and reason. God is immaterial so He does not need a beginning. The universe is material, so it needs a beginning.

    God and the universe are not the same things, so we cannot ask the same questions of two things that are different in the first place.
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    30 Oct '09 01:17
    Originally posted by SharpeMother
    Anything that is immaterial does not need a beginning, such as logic and reason. God is immaterial so He does not need a beginning. The universe is material, so it needs a beginning.

    God and the universe are not the same things, so we cannot ask the same questions of two things that are different in the first place.
    "Anything that is immaterial does not need a beginning,.."

    That's not entirely true. The angels are spirit beings that are made of immaterial stuff. I think.
  10. Melbourne, Australia
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    30 Oct '09 01:19
    Originally posted by josephw
    You don't.

    If there is a God, as defined by Himself, then He has no beginning.
    How does a god define itself?
    All we have to go by is the written accounts of people from the past, and the eyewitness accounts of people who claim to have experienced god in some way.
    That's not enough - at least, as presented, it's not enough.
    Where's the verifiable proof that god exists and has no beginning?
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    30 Oct '09 01:231 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    [b]"Anything that is immaterial does not need a beginning,.."

    That's not entirely true. The angels are spirit beings that are made of immaterial stuff. I think.[/b]
    Ok, so some things that are immaterial have a beginning, I guess like our souls as well... but not all things that are immaterial need to have had a beginning, would you agree? Because if everything needs a beginning then so does God. But not everything needs a beginning.

    Also, only immaterial things can create other immaterial things. God is immaterial so He can create an element of us to be immaterial, like Himself. I think that's partially what He meant when He says that we are created in His image.
  12. Melbourne, Australia
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    30 Oct '09 01:26
    Originally posted by SharpeMother
    Anything that is immaterial does not need a beginning, such as logic and reason. God is immaterial so He does not need a beginning. The universe is material, so it needs a beginning.

    God and the universe are not the same things, so we cannot ask the same questions of two things that are different in the first place.
    Logic requires no beginning? That's a strange thought.
    Equally strange is your notion that god is immaterial - what exactly does that mean, and how does god influence the material world, if it's immaterial?
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    30 Oct '09 01:33
    Originally posted by amannion
    How does a god define itself?
    All we have to go by is the written accounts of people from the past, and the eyewitness accounts of people who claim to have experienced god in some way.
    That's not enough - at least, as presented, it's not enough.
    Where's the verifiable proof that god exists and has no beginning?
    "How does a god define itself?"

    By revelation. God reveals Himself. Otherwise no one would know Him. Does that make sense to you?
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    30 Oct '09 01:33
    Originally posted by amannion
    How does a god define itself?
    All we have to go by is the written accounts of people from the past, and the eyewitness accounts of people who claim to have experienced god in some way.
    That's not enough - at least, as presented, it's not enough.
    Where's the verifiable proof that god exists and has no beginning?
    Immaterial things prove the existence (or at the very least the possibility of the existence) of God.
  15. Melbourne, Australia
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    30 Oct '09 01:35
    Originally posted by SharpeMother
    Immaterial things prove the existence (or at the very least the possibility of the existence) of God.
    How does logic, reason and anything else 'immaterial' prove god's existence?
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