Originally posted by josephwOf course it doesn't make sense to me. If it did, I wouldn't be an atheist.
[b]"How does a god define itself?"
By revelation. God reveals Himself. Otherwise no one would know Him. Does that make sense to you?[/b]
I've still never had anyone on any of these threads explain to me how their 'revelations' of a god's existence can in any way be distinguished from an internal psychological 'revelation'.
Until someone can resonably explain how their experience of god can not be all in their head, then I can't possibly see what you religious guys are talking about.
Originally posted by amannionWhy is it strange that logic and reason do not have a beginning? If they in fact DO have a beginning then tell me where they start..?
Logic requires no beginning? That's a strange thought.
Equally strange is your notion that god is immaterial - what exactly does that mean, and how does god influence the material world, if it's immaterial?
God is not material, but He created material / matter. He can become materialistic if He needs or wants to. There was nothing materialistic before God created it.
Originally posted by amannionI hear ya! It's frustrating for me too.
Of course it doesn't make sense to me. If it did, I wouldn't be an atheist.
I've still never had anyone on any of these threads explain to me how their 'revelations' of a god's existence can in any way be distinguished from an internal psychological 'revelation'.
Until someone can resonably explain how their experience of god can not be all in their head, then I can't possibly see what you religious guys are talking about.
Why doesn't it make sense? It seems simple enough to me. If there is a God, then knowing Him is dependant on Him revealing Himself. You would never know I existed except that I said, "hey, amannion, here I am"!
Then you say, " God has never said 'hey, amannion, here I am'!
And then I say, "oh, but He has"!
Then you say I'm nuts. 😉
I've been trying to prove the existence of God in here for over three years. I must be nuts!
🙄
Originally posted by SharpeMotherGod can become materialistic? So is god material or immaterial? I thought you were arguing god needs no origin since it's immaterial.
Why is it strange that logic and reason do not have a beginning? If they in fact DO have a beginning then tell me where they start..?
God is not material, but He created material / matter. He can become materialistic if He needs or wants to. There was nothing materialistic before God created it.
Originally posted by josephwYou say 'hey amannion, here I am.' I accept this as proof of your existence - although of course, I only have pixels on a screen to go by, but we have a shared understanding of computer screens and so forth to recognise the reality of each other.
I hear ya! It's frustrating for me too.
Why doesn't it make sense? It seems simple enough to me. If there is a God, then knowing Him is dependant on Him revealing Himself. You would never know I existed except that I said, "hey, amannion, here I am"!
Then you say, " God has never said 'hey, amannion, here I am'!
And then I say, "oh, but He has"!
...[text shortened]... ng to prove the existence of God in here for over three years. I must be nuts!
🙄
You, or someone else says, 'I had the exact sam experience with god. It said, hey you here I am.'
I understand that experience of revelation from a theoretical perspective but obviously not from a personal one.
But still, I have yet to hear of anyone who actually had god speak to them over their computer screen.
The only revelations I've heard of are personal ones - god speaks only to us, in some way. Which of course could be either faked, or mistaken.
Can you demonstrate to me that your revelation is NOT mistaken, or some sort of internal dialogue with yourself?
Originally posted by amannionHis mind / soul are immaterial, so He does not need to have any origin. But He can create a body for Himself. We also have an immaterial element to us that God created, and our bodies are the carrying case for our eternal, immaterial souls.
God can become materialistic? So is god material or immaterial? I thought you were arguing god needs no origin since it's immaterial.
Originally posted by SharpeMotherOkay, fair enough.
His mind / soul are immaterial, so He does not need to have any origin. But He can create a body for Himself. We also have an immaterial element to us that God created, and our bodies are the carrying case for our eternal, immaterial souls.
Now, let's try and get beyond the mumbo jumbo of souls and eternity and immaterial things influencing material things, because this is just distilled religio-speak.
You've taken stuff you've heard and learned and had drilled into you and then run with it or regurgitated it. I understand - I was forced to sit through Sunday school and be confirmed and serve at the altar and all the other stuff that goes along with religious indoctrination.
But try to brush off this cloud of buzz words you've got surrounding you and actually type a sentence that is meaningful to humanity.
We're not all religious, so why do you think your 'souls' and other stuff would have any meaning to us?
Originally posted by amannion"Can you demonstrate to me that your revelation is NOT mistaken, or some sort of internal dialogue with yourself?"
You say 'hey amannion, here I am.' I accept this as proof of your existence - although of course, I only have pixels on a screen to go by, but we have a shared understanding of computer screens and so forth to recognise the reality of each other.
You, or someone else says, 'I had the exact sam experience with god. It said, hey you here I am.'
I understa ...[text shortened]... o me that your revelation is NOT mistaken, or some sort of internal dialogue with yourself?
I see where you're coming from.
If I try to answer, no matter what answer, it won't fly.
You would have to take it on faith that it wasn't just some internalised dialog. I realise you can't do that. It would have to be your own personal experience.
And that is exactly what it is. A one on one experience with God.
That's the beauty of it.
Originally posted by josephwExactly.
[b]"Can you demonstrate to me that your revelation is NOT mistaken, or some sort of internal dialogue with yourself?"
I see where you're coming from.
If I try to answer, no matter what answer, it won't fly.
You would have to take it on faith that it wasn't just some internalised dialog. I realise you can't do that. It would have to be your own perso ...[text shortened]... hat is exactly what it is. A one on one experience with God.
That's the beauty of it.[/b]
So for you, it makes perfect sense that this experience is an indication of some external god entity.
But for me, I see it as an internal manifestation of your mind. I'm not saying that you are therefore deluded. I simply see your explanation for your experience as incorrect.
But of course, what do I know - it's your experience, not mine.
1 edit
Originally posted by amannionOk, forgetting all the religious things that I have heard... let me approach this on the basis of there being no God, using logic and reason.
Okay, fair enough.
Now, let's try and get beyond the mumbo jumbo of souls and eternity and immaterial things influencing material things, because this is just distilled religio-speak.
You've taken stuff you've heard and learned and had drilled into you and then run with it or regurgitated it. I understand - I was forced to sit through Sunday school and b religious, so why do you think your 'souls' and other stuff would have any meaning to us?
I have to ask myself, what is logic and reason. Are they things that happen in the brain, or are they immaterial? Does anything exist that is immaterial? How does something that is immaterial begin? How do we conclude what is logical without first having the use of logic? I can see how something that is material can evolve, but there is nothing that explains how something immaterial can begin. I cannot answer the question of where logic and reason come from without God being the answer. That is what proves to me (without the use of the Bible, my feelings, or anything else) that God must exist.
Edit: I didn't mean to ask what is logic and reason, I already know what they are... what I meant to ask was where do logic and reason come from, how did they originate?
Originally posted by SharpeMotherAh, I see your point, but I can't agree with it because you've made the initial assumption that things can exist that are not material. Assuming that energy and matter are material - which I will for this argument - I can't agree that anything immaterial, that is anything not in the energy or matter form can exist.
Ok, forgetting all the religious things that I have heard... let me approach this on the basis of there being no God, using logic and reason.
I have to ask myself, [b]what is logic and reason. Are they things that happen in the brain, or are they immaterial? Does anything exist that is immaterial? How does something that is immaterial begin? How ...[text shortened]... ... what I meant to ask was where do logic and reason come from, how did they originate?[/b]
Logic and reason exist entirely within our brains. We decide what is logical and what is not. There is no logic external to our brains and minds.
Originally posted by amannionYeah, I guess I did come to that conclusion with the initial assumption that immaterial things exist.
Ah, I see your point, but I can't agree with it because you've made the initial assumption that things can exist that are not material. Assuming that energy and matter are material - which I will for this argument - I can't agree that anything immaterial, that is anything not in the energy or matter form can exist.
Logic and reason exist entirely within ou ...[text shortened]... e decide what is logical and what is not. There is no logic external to our brains and minds.
So you are saying that everything is material? Are logic and reason then a consensus of the minds, or does each individual come to their own conclusion of what is logical and reasonable? How can there be absolutes if everyone has their own conclusion of what is logical? Or if logic and reason are a consensus of our minds then why does nature and science and everything obey the laws of logic and reason? Are logic and reason laws? How can all of humanity come to the same conclusion of what is logical and reasonable independent of one another? Or is our conclusion based on repeated observation? We all have different brains, so why don't we all have different things happening in our brains? Or perhaps you don't believe in absolutes?