Originally posted by 667joe
If everything requires a cause, what was the cause of god? If god does not require a cause and has always been here, then why can't the universe have always been here also?

There is no good reason to believe that everything requires a cause. The only people who make that claim are theists trying to prove the existence of God. It is certainly not a known law of science and so far the evidence points strongly in the other direction.

Originally posted by SharpeMother
Anything that is immaterial does not need a beginning, such as logic and reason. God is immaterial so He does not need a beginning. The universe is material, so it needs a beginning.

I agree that logic is independent of time, but that also means that logic is unchanging.
If God too is independent of time then he too must be unchanging. (static).

God and the universe are not the same things, so we cannot ask the same questions of two things that are different in the first place.
We can if as the popular claim goes, we are talking about 'everything'. If everything requires a cause then so does God, if not everything requires a cause then why does the universe?

Originally posted by twhitehead
There is no good reason to believe that everything requires a cause. The only people who make that claim are theists trying to prove the existence of God. It is certainly not a known law of science and so far the evidence points strongly in the other direction.

If you're going to say that not everything requires a cause, then what you're essentially saying is that something can exist because it "just is", you don't have to account for it's origin. If you're going to say that something exists because it "just is" then the theist could equally use this argument to support the existence of God by saying that God [i]"just is"[/].

Originally posted by knightmeister
The only problem is that there are a number of things about the Universe that make it look unlikely that it is. Decaying energy / heat , the Big bang (suggestive of a beginning) etc.

But although one may find it suggestive there is certainly no definitive evidence that the universe had a beginning.

I find it hard to think of something that has a beginning not having a cause of some sort.
But to date, you have not provided anything more than personal incredulity as an argument for a cause.

However , even a causeless Universe that had a beginning would not have "always been here".
Unless 'always' also had a beginning in which case it is possible.

Originally posted by SharpeMother
If you're going to say that not everything requires a cause, then what you're essentially saying is that something can exist because it "just is", you don't have to account for it's origin. If you're going to say that something exists because it "just is" then the theist could equally use this argument to support the existence of God by saying that God "just is".

I have never had a problem with a theist using that argument. I only have a problem when they then contradict that claim by saying that everything must have a cause in an attempt to prove the existence of this God that "just is"

Originally posted by twhitehead
I agree that logic is independent of time, but that also means that logic is unchanging.
If God too is independent of time then he too must be unchanging. (static).

[b]God and the universe are not the same things, so we cannot ask the same questions of two things that are different in the first place.
We can if as the popular claim goes, we are t ...[text shortened]... uires a cause then so does God, if not everything requires a cause then why does the universe?[/b]

God IS unchanging.

Everything that is material requires a cause. Logic and reason do not, because the origin of something that is immaterial cannot be accounted for. How can something immaterial have a beginning? It IS the beginning.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have never had a problem with a theist using that argument. I only have a problem when they then contradict that claim by saying that everything must have a cause in an attempt to prove the existence of this God that "just is"

I agree that theists who use that claim aren't using logic to "prove" the existence of God.

God claims to be the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, the first and the last... this claim clearly states that there is nothing outside of Himself . But how do we prove that without using His own words to prove it? How do we prove the existence of God without using God Himself, or any of His claims, or our own feelings, etc etc etc?.. By using the rules and laws / logic and reason of nature! Logic and reason cannot exist outside of a theistic universe... let me explain why...

If there is no God then there can be nothing immaterial. A material universe cannot spawn an immaterial entity. However, if an immaterial entity existed BEFORE the universe existed, then that immaterial entity (God) can create a universe that holds immaterial entities!

Originally posted by SharpeMother
I agree that theists who use that claim aren't using logic to "prove" the existence of God.

God claims to be the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, the first and the last... this claim clearly states that there is nothing outside of Himself . But how do we prove that without using His own words to prove it? How do we prove the existence of God with ...[text shortened]... sted, then that immaterial entity (God) can create a universe that holds immaterial entities!

You are wrong. For example, you are material and yet you spawned a thought which is immaterial. But, without material (matter /energy which Einstein showed to be equivalent) you could not have a thought.

Originally posted by SharpeMother
God IS unchanging.

Then he is not the God that is described by most Christians.

Everything that is material requires a cause.
Easy to keep repeating the claim, but as long as it remains an unsubstantiated claim it cannot be used to support an argument (unless you clearly state that your conclusions are dependent on the assumption).

Logic and reason do not, because the origin of something that is immaterial cannot be accounted for.
Why not?

How can something immaterial have a beginning? It IS the beginning.
Or rather it is independent of time and so talk of its begging is nonsensical.

Originally posted by SharpeMother
If there is no God then there can be nothing immaterial. A material universe cannot spawn an immaterial entity. However, if an immaterial entity existed BEFORE the universe existed, then that immaterial entity (God) can create a universe that holds immaterial entities!

You are starting with the premise that either the material spawned the material or vice versa. Further you are defining God as "The laws of the universe" and I have no real problem with that. But to call that Theistic is ridiculous as belief that the universe is governed by immaterial laws is I think held by just about everyone - certainly this Atheist.

If you wish to prove the existence of one entity, give it a name, then use its name to make further deductions then you will get nowhere.

Originally posted by 667joe
If everything requires a cause, what was the cause of god? If god does not require a cause and has always been here, then why can't the universe have always been here also?

How old is the universe? If you are dating it, how can it have been here forever?
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
I agree that logic is independent of time, but that also means that logic is unchanging.
If God too is independent of time then he too must be unchanging. (static).

[b]God and the universe are not the same things, so we cannot ask the same questions of two things that are different in the first place.
We can if as the popular claim goes, we are t ...[text shortened]... uires a cause then so does God, if not everything requires a cause then why does the universe?[/b]

Everything and the universe are two different sets.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
How old is the universe? If you are dating it, how can it have been here forever?
Kelly

His post quite clearly suggests that the universe might not be date-able.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Everything and the universe are two different sets.
Kelly

I know that. How is it relevant?

Originally posted by amannion
God can become materialistic? So is god material or immaterial? I thought you were arguing god needs no origin since it's immaterial.

God is God--He can become:
material, immaterial, real, surreal, divine, arcane, a ham and cheese sandwich on rye, or any other form (or amorphous non-form) He chooses.