Originally posted by rwingettThanks for your honesty. You don't care. So why should I waste my time with your pretensions TO care?
Read the Ehrman book. Maybe he addresses those passages. If I cared enough I could check it myself, but I don't.
Anyone can say "But the teachings of Jesus are filled with fabrications. So that's why we don't listen to Jesus."
Then this is an utterly meaningless conversation that you're having altogether! If you accept as
Christian those people who reject parts of the historical Bible and those who accept non-traditional
parts, then the corpus from which a 'Christian' draws is a moving target.
It seems a "target" for you perhaps because you are the one trying to shoot Christians down.
Think of it as being born. Being born is not an end in itself. There follows growth and maturity - a long and gradual process.
After you were born you still had some funny ideas. After a person is "born again" she or he still may have some wrong ideas. For example. They still may think that they need to worship Mary the mother of Jesus.
If you want to argue that there are a lot of immature born again people, I would agree. So we Christians have much shepherding and caring to feed and take care of the Lord's sheep.
I don't disqualify them from being Christians just because they weak faith or wrong ideas on certain things. I have wrong ideas about some things. The brotherhood still recognizes me as a Christian brother.
If a Messianic Jew
accepted the Talmud as Scripture, infallible and Divinely Inspired, and pointed to it to draw conclusions,
what have you to say to that? What about the Christian who thinks the Koran is inspired?
If you would read Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, First and Second Kings, etc. you would see that there have always been false prophets. There has always been the need to discriminate between what was genuinely the oracles of God and what was the imagination of men.
Were there not many speakings from copycat prophets in the Old Testament?
The problem that you speak of is nothing new.
About the Talmud - I forget exactly what the Talmud is. Remind me.
A weak Christian might think the Koran is a something prophetic. But I think they would soon realize that the Gospel is aimed in one direction and the Koran is aimed in the opposite direction.
The Koran rails against the concept that God has a Son. So how long could a person be on the fence. One has to be right and one has to be wrong.
The Holy Spirit will guide us into the truth.
What
about the Christian that thinks that there some Revelation (with a capital 'R'😉 in so-called secular
texts like the writings of St Augustine or St Thomas or Pope Benedict XVI or Raymond Brown or
Bishop John Shelby Spong, &c.?
There are many good and even helpful spiritual writings.
They were not all recognized as the rule of canonical books.
The process of recognizing which were authoritative was guided by God. Not even all of Paul's writings are included in the canon.
God helped His people to recognize the inspired books.
I was helped on this subject by studying A General Introduction to the Bible by Giesler and Nix.
If you are going to be studying all of Revelation, how can you exclude even a science textbook,
for it certainly reveals things, and many of us think that it Reveals things, too.
The Origin of Species or A Brief History of Time are very interesting books. But they are not the prophetic revelation of God. I don't think they will ever be added to the canon.
Some books which we might think should not be in the canon were recoignized as authoritative. Ecclesiates and Song of Songs were disputed. But I believe that God's Spirit won out and they were recognized as inspired.
Hebrews and Revelation were slow in getting into the canon. I believe that the Holy Spirit won out in the end and they too were recognized as authoritative and inspired.
After you begin to read the Bible's books you can taste the divine value. These other writings which you claim should be in the Bible just don't have the same anointing on them. You can taste it deep within. That is if you do a lot of reading of the oracles of God and pray.
But even this is not totally reliable. I think that the fellowship and the coordination of the people of God guided by the Holy Spirit caused the Body of Christ to arrive at a consensus which represented the mind of God in this matter.
Besides, I barely have enough time to explore the unsearchable riches in the 66 books. These alone keep me totally enthralled and occupied. They feed us. They nourish us.
I don't have to go to St. Thomas's Gospel. Of course many copycats jumped on the band wagon under the pretenst of adding to the writings of the Apostles.
Basically what you are saying is that God is inept and it is too easy to deceive the church of Christ. So why bother keeping ANY book out of the Bible of ANY kind?
Have you noticed the last chapter of Revelation?
"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are writtin in this scroll;
And if anyone takes away from the words of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written in this scroll." (Rev./ 22:18,19)
Although I havent read all of the discussion, I would offer that God, in omnicience and omnipotence. Is the source of all things, is al knowing and so forth. Therefore, the restrictions of time and space and natural law apply to us. There is no reason why the earth can't be many cycles older then we might have evidence of, and no reason why there cannot be other places where ife exists and even higher dimentions of reality. All these possibilities are congruent with the bible, because the bible is a method by which beings seek spirituality. In the bible, Jesus even says that God's law is fulfilled through him. We are not automatically saved, but it is possible that from God's point of view, we are all saved. We still have to go through the process and developments of time, and natural law to get there when he can simply read the last chapter of his own book. The point really is that the finite human mind cannot begin to comprehend the dynamics or details of God. Therefore we use a text that defines spiritual principle to fulfil our own lives. For satisfaction truly comes for those who follow God's law, which is inherantly also the laws of nature and time and so forth.
Originally posted by Bosse de NageEr...What about the Bible and an old humanity...? Never mind the age of the earth...It seems the human race is a lot older than 6000-odd years. So I don't see how the "gap theory" helps you.
Er...What about the Bible and an old humanity...? Never mind the age of the earth...It seems the human race is a lot older than 6000-odd years. So I don't see how the "gap theory" helps you.
Do you mean "Cave Men" fossils?
1.) I'm not certain we are really looking at bones that were human.
2.) I am not sure what age the bones or fossils really are.
3.) I am not sure, if they are human, if we are looking at earlier ape like humans or degenerated humans who showed signs of disease.
It is a challenge. But I don't quickly buy some of the assumptions which have been claimed to explain these findings.
They could be animals. Or they could be humans who after the fall were overcome with diseases in the bones and ailments of various kinds which made their remains appear to be stooped over and more premitive.
I think Adam was the first human being. And I don't think apes gradually evolved into humans.
I don't think humans will gradually evolve in the future into xxxxxxxs (??).
Originally posted by jaywillEhrman, during the course of his research, went from being a fundamentalist christian to an agnostic. Are you afraid the same will happen to you if you read his books? Is your faith so weak that it couldn't stand up to a single book? If not, then you owe it to yourself to get both sides of the story. I mean, after all, I wasn't afraid to read the bible.
Thanks for your honesty. You don't care. So why should I waste my time with your pretensions TO care?
Anyone can say "But the teachings of Jesus are filled with fabrications. So that's why we don't listen to Jesus."
Originally posted by rwingettYou are becoming dangerous! 😉
I've been a fan of his for a while now. I've read a few of his books. Very informative stuff. You see him here and there on the History Channel, The Daily Show, and the Colbert Report as well. Everyone who has an interest in christianity should read a few of his books.
Edit: Plus I have an audio series of some of his lectures. Also very good.
Originally posted by rwingettShow me any passages in the New Testament which you honestly feel that they were NOT spoken by Jesus but were fabrications.
Ehrman, during the course of his research, went from being a fundamentalist christian to an agnostic. Are you afraid the same will happen to you if you read his books? Is your faith so weak that it couldn't stand up to a single book? If not, then you owe it to yourself to get both sides of the story. I mean, after all, I wasn't afraid to read the bible.
Any verses anywhere, and I'll consider your case.
Do you think John 14 was not spoken by Jesus?
Do you think Luke 18 through 20 are not really Jesus speaking?
Do you think there are fabrications in chapters 23 through 28 of Matthew?
Where are your samples ??? I'll consider them.
Are you afraid the same will happen to you if you read his books? Is your faith so weak that it couldn't stand up to a single book?
1.) I have read skeptical writings some.
2.) I am not afraid to read some skeptical writings except for the fact that it could be a waste of time. Time is precious.
3.) Even if I WAS afraid. That in and of itself doesn't mean the stuff is true.
It may only mean that I recognize that some fast talking demon could hurt my faith and damage my sheer enjoyment of God.
I could be deceived you know.
You want to send me a copy of the book? Send me a private message. I'll borrow it and send it back.
But if a man is happily married and some guy challenges him to spend 10 nights with another woman saying :
"What's a matter? Are you afraid that you may not be that strong to remain faithful to your wife.?"
Would it be unreasonable for the man to say "I don't know. But why go looking for temptation and trouble?"
Send me your earth shattering book and I'll take it right on the chin.
Originally posted by jaywillAre you totally daft? I've given you one already. The story of the adulteress from the Book of John. I don't know the passage off the top of my head. If you would take the time to actually read my posts you would have seen that one earlier, along with a link from Wikipedia discussing the point.
Show me any passages in the New Testament which you honestly feel that they were NOT spoken by Jesus but were fabrications.
Any verses anywhere, and I'll consider your case.
Do you think John 14 was not spoken by Jesus?
Do you think Luke 18 through 20 are not really Jesus speaking?
Do you think there are fabrications in chapters 23 through 28 of Matthew?
Where are your samples ??? I'll consider them.
Now scurry along and do some research.
Originally posted by jaywillI'll get back to you on that one. Let me ponder the matter.
[b] Are you afraid the same will happen to you if you read his books? Is your faith so weak that it couldn't stand up to a single book?
1.) I have read skeptical writings some.
2.) I am not afraid to read some skeptical writings except for the fact that it could be a waste of time. Time is precious.
3.) Even ...[text shortened]... e?"
Send me your earth shattering book and I'll take it right on the chin.[/b]
Originally posted by rwingettYou're talking about John chapter 8.
Are you totally daft? I've given you one already. The story of the adulteress from the Book of John. I don't know the passage off the top of my head. If you would take the time to actually read my posts you would have seen that one earlier, along with a link from Wikipedia discussing the point.
Now scurry along and do some research.
Don't patronize me fella.
Okay. So you think verses 1 through 9 of John 8 was a latter fabricated fictional account?
Which major tenet of the Christian faith is effected if we conclude that
Jesus DID NOT SAY the verses attributed to Him in John 8:1-9.
Is the incarnation effected?
Is the redemptive death of Christ effected?
Is the Resurrection effected?
Is the doctrine of the Holy Spirit effected?
Which major tenet of my faith is damaged by eliminating from the New Testament the words attributed to Jesus in verses 1 through 9 of John chapter 8?
Originally posted by jaywillI'm at work right now. I won't have time to pursue this until later. Maybe I'll do a little research and get back to you. But I bid you adieu for now.
Okay. So you think verses 1 through 9 of John 8 was a latter fabricated fictional account?
Which major tenet of the Christian faith is effected if we conclude that
Jesus DID NOT SAY the verses attributed to Him in John 8:1-9.
Is the incarnation effected?
Is the redemptive death of Christ effected?
Is the Resurrection effected?
Is t ...[text shortened]... om the New Testament the words attributed to Jesus in verses 1 through 9 of John chapter 8? [/b]