21 Mar 13
Over in the science forum, I stated that Christianity teaches that the Jews were chosen by God (and I called it racist).
Zahlanzi tells me that this is an old Testament teaching and thus can be dismissed - and implied that it is commonly dismissed by modern Christians, though he didn't really specify and statistics.
Its the first time I am hearing this, so I would like to know whether any Christians here agree with him?
21 Mar 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadit is not to be dismissed because it is in the old testament. fundies might justify it that way. it is to be dismissed because one of christianity's main messages is that salvation can be achieved by everyone. regardless of ethnicity, gender, wealth.
Over in the science forum, I stated that Christianity teaches that the Jews were chosen by God (and I called it racist).
Zahlanzi tells me that this is an old Testament teaching and thus can be dismissed - and implied that it is commonly dismissed by modern Christians, though he didn't really specify and statistics.
Its the first time I am hearing this, so I would like to know whether any Christians here agree with him?
if anything, some passages in the new testament might say how jews will be in trouble for killing jesus. (though i don't remember where those are).
the idea of a chosen people is contrary to christianity.
21 Mar 13
In Judaism the concept of Chosen People is that God demanded Jews create a world of peace and social justice. In order to do so, one should develop one's intellect. Hence you find Jews respecting education in addition to liberal ideas of peace and social justice. There is no attention paid among Jews to a heaven and hell. You do not do that which is right in order to curry God's favor and get into heaven. You do God's will because it is just the right thing to do and doing so makes life on Earth so much better. Looks to me like Christians need to be bribed.
21 Mar 13
Originally posted by ZahlanziThis makes me wonder how you decide what are Christianities messages and which are the main ones. Its not based on which Testament it comes from, so what is it based on?
it is not to be dismissed because it is in the old testament. fundies might justify it that way. it is to be dismissed because one of christianity's main messages is that salvation can be achieved by everyone. regardless of ethnicity, gender, wealth.
if anything, some passages in the new testament might say how jews will be in trouble for killing jesus. (though i don't remember where those are).
So do you reject that teaching too? Its not very clear from your post.
21 Mar 13
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou know, some past Pope actually exonerated Jews from this Christ killing claim. Pontius Pilatus was the fifth Prefect of the Roman province of Judaea, from AD 26–36. He is best known as the judge at Jesus' trial and the man who authorized the crucifixion of Jesus. As prefect, he served under Emperor Tiberius. Jesus was of many who was punished with crucifixion. I'm quite sure many who suffered this way were totally innocent of any crime, even under Roman law. Claiming Jews, especially of today, are to blame for the event shows ignorance at best and anti-semitism at worst.
This makes me wonder how you decide what are Christianities messages and which are the main ones. Its not based on which Testament it comes from, so what is it based on?
[b]if anything, some passages in the new testament might say how jews will be in trouble for killing jesus. (though i don't remember where those are).
So do you reject that teaching too? Its not very clear from your post.[/b]
22 Mar 13
Originally posted by ZahlanziJesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
it is not to be dismissed because it is in the old testament. fundies might justify it that way. it is to be dismissed because one of christianity's main messages is that salvation can be achieved by everyone. regardless of ethnicity, gender, wealth.
if anything, some passages in the new testament might say how jews will be in trouble for killing jes ...[text shortened]... don't remember where those are).
the idea of a chosen people is contrary to christianity.
(John 4:21-24 NASB)
The apostle Paul writes the following:
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written,
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense,
And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
(Romans 9:30-33 NASB)
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
And David says,
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
“Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Romans 11:1-36 NASB)
22 Mar 13
Originally posted by Phrannythe wrong christians
In Judaism the concept of Chosen People is that God demanded Jews create a world of peace and social justice. In order to do so, one should develop one's intellect. Hence you find Jews respecting education in addition to liberal ideas of peace and social justice. There is no attention paid among Jews to a heaven and hell. You do not do that which is righ ...[text shortened]... doing so makes life on Earth so much better. Looks to me like Christians need to be bribed.
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22 Mar 13
6 edits
In Judaism the concept of Chosen People is that God demanded Jews create a world of peace and social justice. In order to do so, one should develop one's intellect. Hence you find Jews respecting education in addition to liberal ideas of peace and social justice. There is no attention paid among Jews to a heaven and hell. You do not do that which is right in order to curry God's favor and get into heaven. You do God's will because it is just the right thing to do and doing so makes life on Earth so much better. Looks to me like Christians need to be bribed.
One Christian's response:
1.) "Chosen People" should not be understood as leaving the rest of the world behind. God sought to get through with the created race until roughly the time of the Tower of Babel. Then God turned from the created race to the called race headed by Abraham.
However, it is clear that the called race, ie. the chosen people, was a stepping stone of God in order to extend the blessing to "all the families of the earth." (Genesis 12:3) .
God wants to regain the planet from the usurpation of Satan. The "chosen people" of Israel was a means to do that.
2.) As to no attention to (let us just say "after life" consequences) it is not altogether true that there is no such concept in Judaism.
Daniel prophesied clearly of resurrection and reward at the end of history -
"And many of those who are sleeping in the dust of the ground will awake, some to life eternal and some to reproach, to eternal contempt.
And those who have insight will shine like the shining of the heavenly expanse, and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever." (Daniel 12:2,3)
Do you see no Jewish sense of reward in the next life or next age in those promises?
I anticipate the typical argument is to attempt to distance Daniel from Judaism by some arguments about the timing of the Babylonian Captivity.
However even earlier Isaiah prophesied concerning resurrection.
"And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering that covers up all the peoples, even the veil that veils all the nations. He will swallow up death forever; And the Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces; And the reproach of His people He will remove from all the earth ...(Isaiah 25:7,8)
In this prophecy we have:
a. the destruction of death forever for all the nations.
b. the removal of the reproach against Israel from all the earth.
A definite "next age" salvation is also seen in Isaiah's prophecy in chapters 65 and 66 -
"For I am now creating new heavens and new earth, and the former things will not be remembered, Nor will they come up in the heart. But rejoice and exult forever, in what I create, For I am now creating Jerusalem as an exultation ..." (65:17,18a)
"For as the new heavens and new earth, which I make, remain before Me, declares Jehovah, So will your seed and your name remain." (66:22)
Actually too much of the New Testament promises from the mouth of Christ and His apostles are simply references or re-iterations of these Old Testament passages. So the New Testament writers did not create something new. They may have added some details involving the redemptive death and resurrection of the Messiah as the cause and ultimate catalyst of Jewish and world salvation.
23 Mar 13
2 edits
Biblically, God promised Abaraham descendants whom would be "blessed" and would, in turn, be a blessing on the rest of the earth. This was a blessing to Abraham in order to reward him for his faithfulness. Race had nothing to do with this although one could arguably say that Abrahams race was then blessed for future generations.
So what does it mean to be "blessed"? Just looking at Jews today and of yesterday, it is interesting to me that Jews in the US and abroad seem to live rather affluently. In fact, despite being a minority who has traditionally been "oppressed", they seem to do rather well for themselves finacially speaking. On average, Jews make more in the US today than pretty much any other group. In addition, look at the Nobel Peace prize winners. Jews make up a good bit of them. Why? After all, it is not like there are that many of them.
In Nazi Germany they were seen as affluent and oppressors of the masses. I think much of their persecution over the years stems from envy.
Just say'in.
23 Mar 13
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadIf Zahlanzi implied that Christians dismiss the Jews as being God's chosen people, then Zahlanzi is ignorant. Christians believe the bible, and the bible clearly describes the Jews as God's chosen people.
Over in the science forum, I stated that Christianity teaches that the Jews were chosen by God (and I called it racist).
Zahlanzi tells me that this is an old Testament teaching and thus can be dismissed - and implied that it is commonly dismissed by modern Christians, though he didn't really specify and statistics.
Its the first time I am hearing this, so I would like to know whether any Christians here agree with him?
Also, as a matter of record in both Testaments, in time God's group of chosen people extended outward to include people from all races and ethnicities.
23 Mar 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sumydidYes and no.
Actually, Jesus (and Paul) spoke many times of the chosen, or elect. The idea of chosen people is completely non-contrary to Christianity.
The Bible shows God driving the Hebrews out of the Holy land because of their sin time and time again. However, he always tried to draw them back again unto repentance.
Simply put, the Hebrews have rejected God over, and over, and over again, but he never gave up on them Biblically. Why should we think he has now?
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27 Mar 13
Originally posted by sonshipWell stated. God set His love on the Jews because He simply wanted to. They were also supposed to be a blessing to the Gentiles and extend fellowship with God to the ends of the world.
[quote] In Judaism the concept of Chosen People is that God demanded Jews create a world of peace and social justice. In order to do so, one should develop one's intellect. Hence you find Jews respecting education in addition to liberal ideas of peace and social justice. There is no attention paid among Jews to a heaven and hell. You do not do that which is ...[text shortened]... Messiah as the cause and ultimate catalyst of Jewish and world salvation.
Deut 7:6-10
6 "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 "Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
NKJV
27 Mar 13
Originally posted by ZahlanziThe phrase “chosen people” from the Torah does not mean chosen to enter heaven. In fact, Jews do not spend (or should I say waste) any time whatsoever discussing heaven or hell and how to get into one and avoid the other. God chose Jews to carry out on Earth his/her commandments for social justice. Jews strive to be the best they can be in order to leave humanity better off than when they entered the world. That is God’s will.
it is not to be dismissed because it is in the old testament. fundies might justify it that way. it is to be dismissed because one of christianity's main messages is that salvation can be achieved by everyone. regardless of ethnicity, gender, wealth.
if anything, some passages in the new testament might say how jews will be in trouble for killing jes ...[text shortened]... don't remember where those are).
the idea of a chosen people is contrary to christianity.
27 Mar 13
Originally posted by sonshipJews do not focus their attention on heavan and hell the way Christians do. Rather they focus their attention on doing what is right here and now on earth. You just do not hear sermons in a temple talking about hevan and hell fire.
[quote] In Judaism the concept of Chosen People is that God demanded Jews create a world of peace and social justice. In order to do so, one should develop one's intellect. Hence you find Jews respecting education in addition to liberal ideas of peace and social justice. There is no attention paid among Jews to a heaven and hell. You do not do that which is ...[text shortened]... Messiah as the cause and ultimate catalyst of Jewish and world salvation.