The Christian problem

Originally posted by buckky
The word God does cause problems. The old guy with a beard sitting on a throne seems wacky and childish. I do sense intelligence
in creation. Have I turned that into personhood ? I don't know myself, but the idea that it all just happened somehow without purpose or intelligence is cold as ice and depressing. For me I need purpose and meaning even though I have no idea as to what the meaning would be.

And in the past people needed the feeling of safety and security that the concept of a flat earth gave them or multiple gods each tending to different aspects of the universe etc. The problem is that your depression and needs are not a scientific argument.

How would you define intelligence? Many people claim to 'sense intelligence' but it is often far from clear whether something as simple as a mathematical equation would qualify or whether it means something far more complicated.

Originally posted by buckky
I see the problem with Christianity as being, it has turned off thinking individuals from even sticking their toe in the spiritual arena. A smart friend of mine claims to be an athiest because Christianity is so nut's in so many ways, and God must be a fictional character because the Christian's paint such a looney tune vision of diety. There is great big wo ...[text shortened]... incomprenensible to me just as much as the Christian story that does not charm me in any way.

Your title is disingenious. Christians do not have a problem. Christians' wages for sin are already paid for through the physical death of Jesus and the fact that He rose from the dead and conquored death. The atheists and others on these forums that despise Christians simply for being Christian are the ones who have a problem. They cannot disprove God, so they are frustrated. I know the story of Christ sometimes sounds like a fairy tale, but isn't the current state of man a nightmare? Which is better?

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Everyone must 'fall apart' at some point - I cannot explain how matter came to be; you cannot explain how god came to be. The illusion is that the introduction of a god makes the question of Origin any easier.

Again, eternal, always was, is, and always will be.
This is not the same thing as something caused.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have corrected you on this once before. Not everyone believes that the universe had a beginning. I for one am not stuck on the idea.
As for the 'falling apart' bit it is the erroneous conclusion of yours that makes us 'fall apart' with mirth at your failure to grasp fairly basic concepts.

You have stated your position before, which is not the same thing as
correcting me, except maybe in your mind.

If the universe is dated, it is not eternal because it had a beginning.
If the universe is dated and people claim it is still eternal, then the
dates have issues. The universe cannot be dated billions of years old
and be eternal, since something that always was, is timeless with
respect to the past. If you want to claim that time resets so you can
date it; I'd say all your dating methods would then come under fire
because you cannot know that other things are not resetting your
dates or worse for you, making them appear to be older than what
they are by screwing with the dating methods readings, after all you
would have acknowledge that is now possible.
Kelly

Originally posted by amannion
Well, not everyone says the universe had a beginning. There are a number of possible scenarios - discussed in the scientific community - that allow for an infinite universe or infinite multiverse.

Yes, and the beginning of those are...

The answer has to be anything except God for some.
Kelly

Originally posted by FabianFnas
That's not an atheistic view, that's a scientific view. Christians, hindus, jews and atheists think the same in this case, that the thing is unsettled. Even if scientists don't know much about the pre-Bangian era, some fundamentalistic religious people think they know more but infact know nothing.

Science does not speak to the beginning, it starts mid process with the
Big Bang.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You have stated your position before, which is not the same thing as
correcting me, except maybe in your mind.

You stated:
....the universe which everone says had a beginning....
I do not say that the universe had a beginning therefore the statement is false.
You admit that you are aware that I have pointed it out in the past, therefore you knowingly lied when you stated it in this thread.

Originally posted by twhitehead
You stated:
[b]....the universe which everone says had a beginning....
I do not say that the universe had a beginning therefore the statement is false.
You admit that you are aware that I have pointed it out in the past, therefore you knowingly lied when you stated it in this thread.[/b]

Okay, fine, for those that say it had a beginning....
I'm sure there are those that the topic has never come up for too, so
the words "which everyone says" is not something I should have said.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
You stated:
[b]....the universe which everone says had a beginning....
I do not say that the universe had a beginning therefore the statement is false.
You admit that you are aware that I have pointed it out in the past, therefore you knowingly lied when you stated it in this thread.[/b]

You are very free with the word lie, I think you are just looking for any
excuse to lay that on someone you disagree with.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Science does not speak to the beginning, it starts mid process with the
Big Bang.
Kelly

What do you know about science? Beliving in dinos living in the same age as humans?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
What do you know about science? Beliving in dinos living in the same age as humans?

Find an argument and make it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are very free with the word lie, I think you are just looking for any
excuse to lay that on someone you disagree with.
Kelly

My point is that you have made the same ridiculous claim before and I pointed it out to you before, I pointed it out again in this thread and instead of simply admitting your error you pretended that it was a matter of opinion on my part.
You said:
"You have stated your position before, which is not the same thing as correcting me, except maybe in your mind."

The reason I take such strong issue with it is that not only do you claim that everyone is agreed that the universe has a beginning but you also wish to claim that everyone is agreed that there was time before the beginning. The truth is that neither point is agreed upon. You then wish to claim that since God has neither property he is safely in a different category.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Find an argument and make it.
Kelly

No, you give me any proof that dinos even once were living in the same age as humans?

I dare you!

I say that there were no dinosaurs after 65 million of years:
"Dinosaurs (Greek δεινόσαυρος, deinosauros) were the dominant vertebrate animals of terrestrial ecosystems for over 160 million years, from the late Triassic period (about 230 million years ago) until the end of the Cretaceous period (65 million years ago), when most of them became extinct in the Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur]

And I say that there were no humans before 5 million years ago:
"Anatomically modern humans first appear in the fossil record in Africa about 130,000 years ago, although studies of molecular biology give evidence that the approximate time of divergence from the common ancestor of all modern human populations was 200,000 years ago." [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens#Origin]

Okay, where is you proofs? Or are you only fooling around?

I don't think you are unintelligent, I don't know if you have a hidden agenda, so just show me some proofs of the fact of yours (alone) that humans lived at the same time as humans? Also that dinos were invited by Noah in his ark. 😀

Originally posted by twhitehead
And in the past people needed the feeling of safety and security that the concept of a flat earth gave them or multiple gods each tending to different aspects of the universe etc. The problem is that your depression and needs are not a scientific argument.

How would you define intelligence? Many people claim to 'sense intelligence' but it is often far ...[text shortened]... e as a mathematical equation would qualify or whether it means something far more complicated.

Humans have always had a sense of longing for meaning, and truth. Some truths just can't be proven by science. The fact that we are even talking about this subject makes me think we must be more than flesh and bones. I have always felt like I was more than my body. It seems totally incomprehensible that all around us is just a fluke of chance. Before the big bang what was the cosmic ooze made of ? Where did that stuff come from ? What pushed the whole thing into motion ? The athiest has no answers to these question any more than the Christians do. It's a true mystery, and that mystery
might include for lack of a better word God.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Again, eternal, always was, is, and always will be.
This is not the same thing as something caused.
Kelly

In that case, I see no reason why the universe could not be eternal. Perhaps it's just a series of big bangs and big crunches.