the dead in Christ

Originally posted by duecer
yes, at the resurrection, they are in Sheol until then, The parable of Lazarus and the rich man bears this out.

So they are resurrected along side the righteous to be judged? Where will they be when all this happens?

Originally posted by galveston75
So they are resurrected along side the righteous to be judged? Where will they be when all this happens?

before the throne of God

Originally posted by duecer
before the throne of God

Again on earth...

Originally posted by duecer
I find your explanation dubious at best. Since there was no puncuation, then of course one could infer that it belongs before or after today. However given the way that Greek is conjugated, it isn't that difficult a matter for translators to infer the meaning. The punctuation is likely quite correct.

That leads us to another matter: what is paradise? Stron t up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.[/b]

I find your explanation dubious at best. Since there was no puncuation, then of course one could infer that it belongs before or after today. However given the way that Greek is conjugated, it isn't that difficult a matter for translators to infer the meaning. The punctuation is likely quite correct.

Actually, it's really not that clear at all. Let's look at the Greek:

kai eipen auto: amen soi lego semeron met' emou ese en to paradeiso
(RHP does not support Greek font and I cannot represent the iota subscript here.)

The word semeron ('today'😉 is actually closer to lego ('I say'😉 and so the more plausible interpretation is that it means 'today, I say to you.'😉 The adverb's position in the Greek text immediately after the verb makes it more likely to go with 'I say'.

The Vulgate translation however may give credence to the alternative reading:

Et dixit illi Jesus amen dico tibi hodie mecum eris in paradiso.

In this case, hodie ('today'😉 is equidistant from the verbs dico ('I say'😉 and eris (you will be). This however could be due to the tendency in Vulgar Latin to move the indirect object of dicere immediately after, rather than a deliberate move to couple hodie with eris. So the word order here is not altogether instructive.

Looking at other Scriptural examples does not solve the problem:

Quia hodie impleta est hæc scriptura in auribus vestris.
hoti semeron peplerotai he graphe aute en tois osin humon
[to say:] that today this scripture has been fulfilled in your ears.
Luke 4:21

hodie and semeron both come before the verb. However,

Quia vidimus mirabilia hodie
hoti eidomen paradoxa semeron
[saying:] that we see amazing things today
Luke 5:26

and

panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie.
ton arton hemon ton epiousion didou hemin to kath' hemeran
give us this day our daily bread
Luke 11:3

In both these cases, the temporal adverb for 'today' comes after the verb (in the last example, the Greek does not use semeron but rather a curious Aramaicism to kath' hemeran, 'the [time] throughout the day'😉.

On syntactic grounds, there really can be decisive reading of Luke 23: 42. Really we have to rely on some a priori understanding of what Jesus meant to interpret it. For example, if we believe in an immediate heavenly world, then your reading is obviously preferable. But the language here is ambiguous.

Heaven and Paradise are like synonyms I would say there don't you think?
Where God is is heaven or paradise the two words are interchangeable.




Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Heaven and Paradise are like synonyms I would say there don't you think?
Where God is is heaven or paradise the two words are interchangeable.




Manny

I agree. The good news of Jesus Christ is not complicated, in fact it is so simple that some just people can't believe it.

I think duecer also has it spot on when he pointed out that the judgment of those who are in Christ is different to those who are not; there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ so their judgment is about their position in the new Kingdom.

may I add something here:

The resurection of Jesus is a natural occurance, because every living thing, when it passes on, takes birth again.....because thats the law of the land.

When Jesus was resurected, he didnt reserect in his past material body, but in his spiritual body.......but who could have seen this, because the material eyes cannot see spirit.

This idea that all the christians who have died, are in their graves waiting to be reserected is fancifull.

But dont think for a minute that the body that has passed on, will come back to life, because it wont, and never could.....but the actual fact is, that the soul upon leaving the body at death, goes to their next life, and takes a brand new body, according to their karma, (as a baby of course).

We have been born and have died millions of times before, and to stop this cycle of birth and death, we must take to he spiritual life, and have unalloyed devotion to God.

But for the person who believes and knows God, and follows the spiritual life, they dont take another material body, but take a spiritual body in the spiritual world with God and all the other liberated living entities.

In this universe there are the heavenly planets, the earthly planets and the hellish planets (not to be mistaken for hell)......and the heavenly planets are temporary as well like the earthly planets, but beyond the heavenly planets, there is the spiritual sky, where the Lord resides, and this is the ultimate destination for the living entitiy.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]I find your explanation dubious at best. Since there was no puncuation, then of course one could infer that it belongs before or after today. However given the way that Greek is conjugated, it isn't that difficult a matter for translators to infer the meaning. The punctuation is likely quite correct.

Actually, it's really not that clear at all. Le ...[text shortened]... your reading is obviously preferable. But the language here is ambiguous.[/b]

I had meant to say, On syntactic grounds, there really can be no decisive reading of Luke 23: 42.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I had meant to say, On syntactic grounds, there really can be no decisive reading of Luke 23: 42.

Well again it would make no sense that Jesus would mean "that day" because Jesus himself was dead for 3 days and then was still on earth for a lengthy amount of time after his resurrection.
So he would have to mean "I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."
It would not make sense to say it any differently.

Originally posted by galveston75
Again on earth...

heaven

Originally posted by duecer
heaven

That thought simply makes no sense. If you take that literally then you have to take the destruction of the heavens literally. How and why should the heavens be destroyed? If it was destroyed then what happens to all the spirit beings that reside there?

Originally posted by duecer
when we die we go to heaven

2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we ...[text shortened]... his very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

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when we die we go to heaven
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Not true duecer, respectfully.

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2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
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This only says that the source of our glorified and resurrected body is something of heaven.

This did not say the dead Christian is going to heaven.

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2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling,
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This only says that we groan to be clothed with this glorified body whose source is heavenly. It does not say we groan to go to heaven. Or that we must go there to be thus clothed.


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3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked.
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Since it is undesireable that the redeemed be "unclothed" before God, ie. without a resurrected body, it is also abnormal.

This argues against the popular concept that a Christian dies and goes to heaven in an unclothed and "naked" state.

The verse argues the opposite position to the view of Christians dying and immediately going to heaven "unclothed" appearing "naked" before God.

They must go in thier immaterial part, somewhere else then.

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4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
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This is about the mortal being swallowed up by divine life. It is not about going up to heaven. The glorified and resurrected body has its source from God in heaven.

The saints that are "asleep" in Christ are in Paradise. They are where Jesus told the thief that He and the thief were going on the day they died. That was Paradise and not heaven. He went into the heart of the earth on that day of His death.He did not ascend with the thief to heaven.

"This day you will be with Me in Paradise" cannot mean that the believing thief died and went to a heavenly dwelling in heaven.

Didn't the Lord Jesus, on the day He died, and for three days go into the heart of the earth ? See (Matt. 12:40; Eph. 4:9 "lower parts of the earth" )

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5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
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This also says nothing about going up to heaven. It does say that God has fashioned and prepared the believers to receive a glorified body.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]==============================
when we die we go to heaven
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Not true duecer, respectfully.

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2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
======= ay that God has fashioned and prepared the believers to receive a glorified body.

the passage continues:[/b] 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

while we are at home (or living in) in our fleshly bodies we are away from God, logically the opposite is true. If we no longer call these bodies home, then we are with the Lord. For that's what the passage says when continued: 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Prefer to be away from the body at home with the lord. This passage agrees with the other texts cited.


(emphasis mine)
Matthew Henry's commentary
The believer not only is well assured by faith that there is another and a happy life after this is ended, but he has good hope, through grace, of heaven as a dwelling-place, a resting-place, a hiding-place. In our Father's house there are many mansions, whose Builder and Maker is God. The happiness of the future state is what God has prepared for those that love him: everlasting habitations, not like the earthly tabernacles, the poor cottages of clay, in which our souls now dwell; that are mouldering and decaying, whose foundations are in the dust. The body of flesh is a heavy burden, the calamities of life are a heavy load. But believers groan, being burdened with a body of sin, and because of the many corruptions remaining and raging within them. Death will strip us of the clothing of flesh, and all the comforts of life, as well as end all our troubles here below. But believing souls shall be clothed with garments of praise, with robes of righteousness and glory. The present graces and comforts of the Spirit are earnests of everlasting grace and comfort. And though God is with us here, by his Spirit, and in his ordinances, yet we are not with him as we hope to be. Faith is for this world, and sight is for the other world. It is our duty, and it will be our interest, to walk by faith, till we live by sight. This shows clearly the happiness to be enjoyed by the souls of believers when absent from the body, and where Jesus makes known his glorious presence. We are related to the body and to the Lord; each claims a part in us. But how much more powerfully the Lord pleads for having the soul of the believer closely united with himself! Thou art one of the souls I have loved and chosen; one of those given to me. What is death, as an object of fear, compared with being absent from the Lord!

Originally posted by duecer
the passage continues: 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

while we are at home (or living in) in our fleshly bodies we are away from God, logically the opposite is true. If we no longer call these bodies home, then we are with the Lord. For that's what the passage says e given to me. What is death, as an object of fear, compared with being absent from the Lord!

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the passage continues: 6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.

while we are at home (or living in) in our fleshly bodies we are away from God, logically the opposite is true. If we no longer call these bodies home, then we are with the Lord. For that's what the passage says when continued: 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.


Prefer to be away from the body at home with the lord. This passage agrees with the other texts cited.
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I will digest the Matthew Henry quote latter.

But the continuation does speak about being with the Lord Jesus. However, this is a matter of degree. We are with the Lord Jesus until the consummation of the age (Matt. 28:20).

"And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age."

Therefore we should not say we are not "with the Lord Jesus" even now as those who are "joined to the Lord" or "firmly attached to the anointed One".

So to be with the Lord in dying must be in a greater degree but not in an absolute sense as if the Christian is not NOW with the Lord.

So then to die a believer and go to Paradise is to be with the Lord in some greater sense then. Being "with the Lord" does not here insist that we have to be in heaven to be with the Lord.

Our body is in the material realm; the Lord Jesus is in the spiritual realm. In this sense we are abroad from the Lord Jesus when we are at home in our body.

To be sure the intermediate state in Paradise (not heaven) is more with the Lord in a relative sense. So for the apostles to die, was a release from the material realm to be "with the Lord" in the spiritual realm. The apostles were always being persecuted unto death (1:8-9; 4:11; 11:23; 1 cor. 15:31). And they were well pleased rather to die that they might be released from their confining body to be at home with the Lord in a better realm (Phil. 1:23).

We do not have to read "with the Lord" to insist the meaning of going up to heaven.

The Old Testament patriarch David died and did not ascend up to heaven (Acts 2:34). He also wrote that even if he should make his bed in Sheol he could not escape from the Spirit of God in Psalm 139:8.

In principle the departed saint then can be "with the Lord" certainly, to a more pleasant degree in death without going to heaven unclothed and "naked" before receiving the resurrected and glorified body.

In the book of Revelation the departed believers are symbolically shown to be "underneath the altar". This should mean under the earth.

"And when He opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O master, holy and true, will You not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

And to each of them was given a white robe; and it was said to them that they shoud ret yet a little while, until also the number of thier fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed, even as they were, is completed." (Rev. 6:9-11)

In figure, the altar is in the outer court of the tabernacle and the temple, and the outer court signifies the earth. The area underneath the altar is the region underneath the earth. Underneath the earth is the Paradise to which the Lord Jesus went after His death (Luke 23:43). It is the heart of the earth (Matt. 12:40). And it is a section of Hades the realm of the dead (Acts 2:27).

"Underneath the altar" may be considered another kind of expression for "Abraham's bosom" where those who walked in the faith of Abraham are before the resurrection (Luke 16:22-26)

Otherwise you have to argue that Hades is in heaven, I think. So Hades or Sheol is under the earth. And to the believer who walks in faith it is a comfortable place where they are relatively more "with the Lord" then when in the fallen body alive upon the earth.

They await the resurrected and glorified body to cloth them at the second coming of Christ. They are not now presently in heaven.

Before Revelation 19:19 which speaks of a great multitude in heaven, it is difficult to find any passage speaking of people in heaven in the Bible. I am opened to examples to the contrary.

But Revelation 19:19 apparently refers to those recently raptured and not having died and gone up to heaven throughout the church age. Ie. the Firstfruits (chap. 14), the Manchild (chap. 12)[/b]. These were saints raptured to heaven in resurrected and/or glorified bodies at the close of the age.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well again it would make no sense that Jesus would mean "that day" because Jesus himself was dead for 3 days and then was still on earth for a lengthy amount of time after his resurrection.
So he would have to mean "I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise."
It would not make sense to say it any differently.

There are dozens of passages where Christ says "I tell you" or "I say unto you". But there is only one passage where he says "I say unto you today". And this is probably becuase adding the word 'today' is unnecessary as the listener will obviously know Christ is saying those words 'today'. It is far more likely that the passage should read .. "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise"

Im not taking any sides in this discussion since I am convinced that all aspects of the Bible was never meant for us to unravel or interpret and some unimportant parts are probably deliberately vague. To my mind the important parts about what we need to do and believe to attain salvation is crystal clear.