1. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    23 Nov '10 22:20
    when we die we go to heaven

    2 Cor. 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
  2. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    23 Nov '10 22:24
    Luke 23: 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

    42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

    43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


    paradise eh? hmmmmm... sounds... heavenly
  3. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    23 Nov '10 22:35
    1 Thessalonians 4: 13 Brothers and sisters, we want you to know what happens to those who die. We don't want you to be sad, as other people are. They don't have any hope.

    14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again. When he returns, many who believe in him will have died already. We believe that God will bring them back with Jesus.

    15 That agrees with what the Lord has said. When the Lord comes, many of us will still be alive. We tell you that we will certainly not go up before those who have died.

    We believe that God will bring them back with Jesus.
    they will come back with Jesus. They are with him now. We don't go there before the dead do, the word says so.
  4. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    23 Nov '10 22:41
    Hebrews 12:22 No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering. 23 You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect. 24 You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel.

    "the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect"

    etc etc etc
  5. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    23 Nov '10 22:44
    Philippians 1:22 But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don’t know which is better. 23 I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me. 24 But for your sakes, it is better that I continue to live.

    torn between two choices, live and do ministry or die and go to heaven
  6. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    23 Nov '10 22:45
    Rev6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony.

    they were in heaven all the time, not "asleep in the ground"
  7. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    23 Nov '10 23:16
    Originally posted by duecer
    Luke 23: 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

    42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

    43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


    paradise eh? hmmmmm... sounds... heavenly
    The word Paradise has never been used in the Bible when referring to heaven. Never. If Jesus meant heaven, why didn't he say heaven?

    What is the Paradise that Jesus promised to the evildoer who died alongside him?

    Luke’s account shows that an evildoer, being executed alongside Jesus Christ, spoke words in Jesus’ defense and requested that Jesus remember him when he ‘got into his kingdom.’ Jesus’ reply was: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” (Lu 23:39-43) The punctuation shown in the rendering of these words must, of course, depend on the translator’s understanding of the sense of Jesus’ words, since no punctuation was used in the original Greek text. Punctuation in the modern style did not become common until about the ninth century C.E. Whereas many translations place a comma before the word “today” and thereby give the impression that the evildoer entered Paradise that same day, there is nothing in the rest of the Scriptures to support this. Jesus himself was dead and in the tomb until the third day and was then resurrected as “the firstfruits” of the resurrection. (Ac 10:40; 1Co 15:20; Col 1:18) He ascended to heaven 40 days later.—Joh 20:17; Ac 1:1-3, 9.
    The evidence is, therefore, that Jesus’ use of the word “today” was not to give the time of the evildoer’s being in Paradise but, rather, to call attention to the time in which the promise was being made and during which the evildoer had shown a measure of faith in Jesus. It was a day when Jesus had been rejected and condemned by the highest-ranking religious leaders of his own people and was thereafter sentenced to die by Roman authority. He had become an object of scorn and ridicule. So the wrongdoer alongside him had shown a notable quality and commendable heart attitude in not going along with the crowd but, rather, speaking out in Jesus’ behalf and expressing belief in his coming Kingship. Recognizing that the emphasis is correctly placed on the time of the promise’s being made rather than on the time of its fulfillment, other translations, such as those in English by Rotherham and Lamsa, those in German by Reinhardt and W. Michaelis, as well as the Curetonian Syriac of the fifth century C.E., rendered the text in a form similar to the reading of the New World Translation, quoted herein.
    As to the identification of the Paradise of which Jesus spoke, it is clearly not synonymous with the heavenly Kingdom of Christ. Earlier that day entry into that heavenly Kingdom had been held out as a prospect for Jesus’ faithful disciples but on the basis of their having ‘stuck with him in his trials,’ something the evildoer had never done, his dying on a stake alongside Jesus being purely for his own criminal acts. (Lu 22:28-30; 23:40, 41) The evildoer obviously had not been “born again,” of water and spirit, which Jesus showed was a prerequisite to entry into the Kingdom of the heavens. (Joh 3:3-6) Nor was the evildoer one of the ‘conquerors’ that the glorified Christ Jesus stated would be with him on his heavenly throne and that have a share in “the first resurrection.”—Re 3:11, 12, 21; 12:10, 11; 14:1-4; 20:4-6.
    Some reference works present the view that Jesus was referring to a paradise location in Hades or Sheol, supposedly a compartment or division thereof for those approved by God. The claim is made that the Jewish rabbis of that time taught the existence of such a paradise for those who had died and were awaiting a resurrection. Regarding the teachings of the rabbis, Hastings’ Dictionary of the Bible states: “The Rabbinical theology as it has come down to us exhibits an extraordinary medley of ideas on these questions, and in the case of many of them it is difficult to determine the dates to which they should be assigned. . . . Taking the literature as it is, it might appear that Paradise was regarded by some as on earth itself, by others as forming part of Sheol, by others still as neither on earth nor under earth, but in heaven . . . But there is some doubt as respects, at least, part of this. These various conceptions are found indeed in later Judaism. They appear most precisely and most in detail in the mediaeval Cabbalistic Judaism . . . But it is uncertain how far back these things can be carried. The older Jewish theology at least . . . seems to give little or no place to the idea of an intermediate Paradise. It speaks of a Gehinnom for the wicked, and a Gan Eden, or garden of Eden, for the just. It is questionable whether it goes beyond these conceptions and affirms a Paradise in Sheol.”—1905, Vol. III, pp. 669, 670.
    Even if they did teach such a thing, it would be most unreasonable to believe that Jesus would propagate such a concept, in view of his condemnation of the non-Biblical religious traditions of the Jewish religious leaders. (Mt 15:3-9) Likely the paradise truly familiar to the Jewish malefactor to whom Jesus spoke was the earthly Paradise described in the first book of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Paradise of Eden. That being so, Jesus’ promise would reasonably point to a restoration of such earthly paradisaic condition. His promise to the wrongdoer would therefore give assured hope of a resurrection of such an unrighteous one to an opportunity to life in that restored Paradise.—Compare Ac 24:15; Re 20:12, 13; 21:1-5; Mt 6:10.



    OK..Let's compare Acts:
    Acts 24:14-15 (New International Version, ©2010)
    14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

    Pay attention here as Paul states that the resurrection would be of both righteous and unrighteous.
    Are you catching that point? If mankind in general were going to be resurected to heaven only and not earth , how does this scripture fit in with you opinion?
    Was the thief not an unrighteous person at his death? Are not all people unrighteous at their deaths?
    So if as you say all will go to heaven when their resurrected and not here on earth, does that mean then all the unrighteous will be going to heaven also? Does that really make sense to you?
    Unrighteousness it seems should not go to heaven..you think?

    Lets look at Rev:
    Revelation 20:12-13 (New International Version, ©2010)
    12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

    Where was this judging done here? In heaven or on earth? Remember the word "before" does not mean actually being in heaven. If it did then that means the ones who were not in good favor with God would be resurrected up to heaven. How can that be?
  8. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    24 Nov '10 00:321 edit
    Originally posted by galveston75
    The word Paradise has never been used in the Bible when referring to heaven. Never. If Jesus meant heaven, why didn't he say heaven?

    What is the Paradise that Jesus promised to the evildoer who died alongside him?

    Luke’s account shows that an evildoer, being executed alongside Jesus Christ, spoke words in Jesus’ defense and requested that Jesus r ones who were not in good favor with God would be resurrected up to heaven. How can that be?
    I find your explanation dubious at best. Since there was no puncuation, then of course one could infer that it belongs before or after today. However given the way that Greek is conjugated, it isn't that difficult a matter for translators to infer the meaning. The punctuation is likely quite correct.

    That leads us to another matter: what is paradise? Strong's concordance says there are many usages for that word, one of them being heaven; but let's see what the word says about it. Rev 2:7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

    Could that paradise be Eden? it is conceivable yes, but in the context in which it is being used the writer is likely speaking of heaven, or a level of heaven. This theory is supported by Paul in his second letter to the Corinthians where he relates visions

    2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
  9. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    24 Nov '10 00:412 edits
    Originally posted by duecer
    I find your explanation dubious at best. Since there was no puncuation, then of course one could infer that it belongs before or after today. However given the way that Greek is conjugated, it isn't that difficult a matter for translators to infer the meaning. The puncuation is likely quite correct.

    That leads us to another matter: what is paradise? Strong aught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.
    PARADISE
    A beautiful park, or a parklike garden. The Greek word paradeisos occurs three times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. (Lu 23:43; 2Co 12:4; Re 2:7) Greek writers as far back as Xenophon (c. 431-352 B.C.E.) used the word (pairidaeza), and Pollux attributed it to Persian sources. (Cyropaedia, I, iii, 14; Anabasis, I, ii, 7; Onomasticon, IX, 13) Some lexicographers would derive the Hebrew word pardes (meaning, basically, a park) from the same source. But since Solomon (of the 11th century B.C.E.) used pardes in his writings, whereas existing Persian writings go back only to about the sixth century B.C.E., such derivation of the Hebrew term is only conjectural. (Ec 2:5; Ca 4:13) The remaining use of par; is at Nehemiah 2:8, where reference is made to a royal wooded park of Persian King Artaxerxes Longimanus, in the fifth century B.C.E.—See PARK.
    The three terms (Hebrew pardes, Persian pairidaeza, and Greek paradeisos), however, all convey the basic idea of a beautiful park or parklike garden. The first such park was that made by man’s Creator, Jehovah God, in Eden. (Ge 2:8, 9, 15) It is called a gan, or “garden,” in Hebrew but was obviously parklike in size and nature. The Greek Septuagint appropriately uses the term paradeisos with reference to that garden. (See EDEN No. 1; GARDEN [Garden of Eden].) Because of sin, Adam lost his right to live in that paradise and his opportunity to gain the right to everlasting life, which right was represented in the fruit of a divinely designated tree in the center of the garden. The garden of Eden may have been enclosed in some way, since it was necessary to place angelic guards only at the east side thereof to prevent human entrance.—Ge 3:22-24.
  10. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    24 Nov '10 00:49
    Originally posted by galveston75
    The word Paradise has never been used in the Bible when referring to heaven. Never. If Jesus meant heaven, why didn't he say heaven?

    What is the Paradise that Jesus promised to the evildoer who died alongside him?

    Luke’s account shows that an evildoer, being executed alongside Jesus Christ, spoke words in Jesus’ defense and requested that Jesus r ...[text shortened]... ones who were not in good favor with God would be resurrected up to heaven. How can that be?
    The second point.The difference between the resurrection and heaven

    Those who die in Christ, in other words, those who repent, accept Christ as Lord and savior fulfill the qualifications for entry to God's kingdom. Those who do not are relegated to Sheol to await judgment.

    The judgment of Christians differs from that of sinners. Our judgment is about our reward and standing within the community of believers. "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much." Luke 16:10 We escape the the judgment of sinners by Christ's atoning work. Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    The judgment of sinners decides their fate. Will they be banished to eternal damnation? Will God have mercy and offer one last chance to repent? Only God knows for sure. What we as Christian disciples know for sure is that we do not face that judgment.
  11. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    24 Nov '10 00:50
    Originally posted by galveston75
    PARADISE
    A beautiful park, or a parklike garden. The Greek word paradeisos occurs three times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. (Lu 23:43; 2Co 12:4; Re 2:7) Greek writers as far back as Xenophon (c. 431-352 B.C.E.) used the word (pairidaeza), and Pollux attributed it to Persian sources. (Cyropaedia, I, iii, 14; Anabasis, I, ii, 7; Onomasticon, IX, 13) ...[text shortened]... ary to place angelic guards only at the east side thereof to prevent human entrance.—Ge 3:22-24.
    Yes, and it also can be used instead of heaven. Strong is a credible authority in this manner
  12. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    24 Nov '10 00:52
    Originally posted by duecer
    The second point.The difference between the resurrection and heaven

    Those who die in Christ, in other words, those who repent, accept Christ as Lord and savior fulfill the qualifications for entry to God's kingdom. Those who do not are relegated to Sheol to await judgment.

    The judgment of Christians differs from that of sinners. Our judgment is about ou ...[text shortened]... for sure. What we as Christian disciples know for sure is that we do not face that judgment.
    No it does not say the unrighteous are in the grave or hell or wherever. It says they are standing with the righteous waiting their judgement.
  13. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    24 Nov '10 00:55
    Paradise Restored
    Soon, God’s Kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ will rule the earth. Jesus called this new beginning “the renewal of all things.” (Matthew 19:28, New International Version) What will conditions be like? Note the following Bible promises:
    Psalm 46:9. “He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth.”
    Isaiah 35:1. “The wilderness and the waterless region will exult, and the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron.”
    Isaiah 65:21-23. “The work of their own hands my chosen ones will use to the full. They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance.”
    John 5:28, 29. “The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out.”
    Revelation 21:4. “[God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.”


    How can these scripture refer to heaven and not earth?
  14. Subscriberduecer
    anybody seen my
    underpants??
    Joined
    01 Sep '06
    Moves
    56453
    24 Nov '10 00:56
    Originally posted by galveston75
    No it does not say the unrighteous are in the grave or hell or wherever. It says they are standing with the righteous waiting their judgement.
    yes, at the resurrection, they are in Sheol until then, The parable of Lazarus and the rich man bears this out.
  15. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    24 Nov '10 00:57
    What God Promises
    War, civil strife, crime, violence, and hunger are a few of the things that plague humanity today and cause millions to live in fear and dread. Have any of these affected you? Then note what God promises:
    “Just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more . . . The meek ones themselves will possess the earth, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.”—Psalm 37:10, 11.
    “My people must dwell in a peaceful abiding place and in residences of full confidence and in undisturbed resting-places.”—Isaiah 32:18.
    “[Jehovah] is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; the wagons he burns in the fire.”—Psalm 46:9.
    “They will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble.”—Micah 4:4.
    “There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow.”—Psalm 72:16.
    “As for the one listening to me, he will reside in security and be undisturbed from dread of calamity.”—Proverbs 1:33.


    How do these scriptures not apply to earth?
Back to Top