1. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jul '16 00:38
    Do you think the death of Jesus Christ would be as effective as it is if He were not God incarnate ?

    I will argue that this Person:

    1.) Had to be a genuine man in order to be able to DIE.

    2.) Had to be God Himself to make the efficacy and power of His death universal and of eternal effectiveness.
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    27 Jul '16 01:11
    Originally posted by sonship
    Do you think the death of Jesus Christ would be as effective as it is if He were not God incarnate ?

    I will argue that this Person:

    1.) Had to be a genuine man in order to be able to DIE.

    2.) Had to be God Himself to make the efficacy and power of His death universal and of eternal effectiveness.
    I agree Jesus had to be a perfect sinless man in order to balance Adam.

    He relied on his Father Jehovah God to aid him in providing the ransom.

    Remember the heartfelt way he prayed to God?

    (Matthew 26:39) And going a little way forward, he fell facedown, praying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”
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    27 Jul '16 01:14
    I'd love to continue this discussion but I am on my way to a meeting at my

    Father's house.

    I hope to talk with you later.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jul '16 01:56
    This One Who died had to acquire human blood.

    'Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.' (Heb. 9:22)


    The writer is referencing Leviticus 17:11 in the Old Testament..

    " For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you to make expiation for your souls on the altar, for it is the blood, by reason of the life, that makes expiation. (Lev. 17:11)


    The Lord Jesus had to have blood. Before the Word became flesh Christ had no blood. When the Word became flesh this Person possessed blood. Through incarnation this Logos Who was with God and was God acquired flesh and blood.

    He took on blood and flesh.

    " Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil. (Heb. 2:14)


    His death is going to accomplish something momentous. He speaks of His blood just before His death, that it is the blood of the new covenant.

    " For this is the blood of the covenant which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)

    " And similarly the cup after they had dined, saying, This cup is the new covenant established in My blood, which is being poured out for you." (Luke 22:20)


    We will see that He had human to have blood to shed for us.
    And He had to be God to be able to die for men of all times throughout history with an eternal effectiveness.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jul '16 02:03
    Originally posted by roigam
    I'd love to continue this discussion but I am on my way to a meeting at my

    Father's house.

    I hope to talk with you later.
    The death of this man possesses an eternal element. He offered Himself without blemish to God through the eternal Spirit.

    There is something about His act on Calvary that has eternal power for it was accomplished through the eternal Spirit of God. This was no mere human death.

    " How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God." (Heb. 9;11)


    This is too profound for me to fully understand. Christ's act of death was done through the eternal Spirit and has eternal power and efficacy.
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    27 Jul '16 04:12
    Originally posted by sonship
    Do you think the death of Jesus Christ would be as effective as it is if He were not God incarnate ?

    I will argue that this Person:

    1.) Had to be a genuine man in order to be able to DIE.

    2.) Had to be God Himself to make the efficacy and power of His death universal and of eternal effectiveness.
    On what do you base #2? This is belief I disagree with since God cannot die.
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    27 Jul '16 07:18
    I wouldn't have too much respect for a "man" who lets himself be "killed" knowing full well he can resurrect himself with the greatest ease, and arguably never even died.

    Come to think of it, I have no respect for people who attempt to make themselves be martyrs.
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    27 Jul '16 09:26
    Originally posted by sonship
    Do you think the death of Jesus Christ would be as effective as it is if He were not God incarnate ?

    I will argue that this Person:

    1.) Had to be a genuine man in order to be able to DIE.

    2.) Had to be God Himself to make the efficacy and power of His death universal and of eternal effectiveness.
    #1 is in the Bible.
    #2 is in the writings of Watchman Nee.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jul '16 10:384 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    On what do you base #2? This is belief I disagree with since God cannot die.
    On what do you base #2? This is belief I disagree with since God cannot die.



    Why must Christ be God in order for His redemption to be so effective ?

    In Jehovah ALONE is there righteousness and justification.

    " It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength.

    To Him shall men come, And all those who are burning in anger against Him shall be ashamed. In Jehovah all the seed of Israel shall be justified and glory." (Isa. 45:24a)


    This passage is all the more crucial when we consider the what immediately preceded it and how it compares to the New Testament:

    "I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness and will not return,

    That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear.

    And it shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness ... etc." (vs.23,24a)


    Compare to the One who did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but took on the form of a slave, came in the likeness of a man, and died a redemptive death in utter obedience on His cross -

    " Therefore also God highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name.

    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father," (Phil. 2:9-11)


    The Father and the Son devised a way that death and the shedding of righteous blood could be accomplished in God the only Savior. For Isaiah 45 also says there that He is God and Savior and there is no one else.

    " ... I, Jehovah? And there is no other God besides Me; A righteous God and Savior, And there is no one except Me.

    Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else. ... That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear. It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness ... etc." (See Isaiah 45:21b-24)


    In Isaiah 43:11 God says apart from Him there is no Savior and no God formed either before Him or after Him.

    " You are my witnesses, declares Jehovah, ,,, In order that you may know and believe Me. And understand that I am He.

    Before Me there was no God formed, Neither will there be any after Me.

    I even I, am Jehovah;
    And there is no Savior besides Me." (Isaiah 43:10-11)


    This is the God Who became a man that as a man He might pass through death shedding the blood of a man to be our Redeemer. Please notice now how the Redeemer is the FIrst and the Last and the resurrected God-man Jesus is the First and the Last.

    Compare:

    " Thus says Jehovah the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts,

    I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)


    The slain and resurrected God-man -

    " And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying,

    Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead, and behold , I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17,18)
  10. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jul '16 11:301 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    On what do you base #2? This is belief I disagree with since God cannot die.
    On what do you base #2? This is belief I disagree with since God cannot die.


    If Jesus was only a sinless man He could only die for one person.
    Being God-man He can die for more than one person. His death is good for all mankind, especially of those who believe in Him.

    The good man's death is only good for one person.
    The God-man's death is effective for all the human race in principle.

    Suppose in your entire life you committed only ONE sin.
    The Bible says God's perfection demands that you die for that one sin.
    His holiness and righteous demand is absolute.

    " For whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles in one point has become guilty of all. For He who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not murder. now if you do not commit adultery but you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law." (James 2:11)


    If Jesus were just a sinless man He could die as a substitute for that sin. But if you were to sin again you would have to die for the second sin.

    You know that you have sinned many more times then once. To be able to die for all sins and for all mankind Jesus must not only be a righteous man but God.

    His redemptive death is not only good for one sin or for one person. It is so extensively divine that it covers for all men even for thousands of years after His death. According to the Bible it is also a redemptive death for those in the past before His incarnation who looked foward towards His coming, trusting in the offerings of animals according to the Levitical priesthood.

    This is an all-inclusive death carried out by God incarnate as a man.
    As God-man He can die and be raised again.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jul '16 12:201 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    #1 is in the Bible.
    #2 is in the writings of Watchman Nee.
    #2 is in the writings of Watchman Nee.


    Since you insist on more free advertizing of very helpful ministry from Watchman Nee - let's hear then from Brother Nee on the Philippians passage.

    THE LORD CREATING SUBMISSION

    The Word of God tells us that the Lord Jesus and the Father are one. In the beginning was the Word, just as in the beginning there was God. The Word was God, and this Word created the heavens and earth. With God in the beginning there was glory. It was an inapproachable glory, the glory of the Son. The Father and the Son are equal, equipotent, coexisting, and existing simultaneously. But there is a difference in person between the Father and the Son. It is not a distinction in intrinsic nature but in arrangement in the Godhead. The Bible says that the Lord did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped (Phil 2:6). To be grasped means to take by force. The Lord’s equality with God is not something that He assumed by force. It is not an assertion or a usurpation because the Lord had the image of God in the first place.

    Philippians 2:5-7 form one section, while verses 8-11 form another section. The first section is on Christ emptying Himself. The second section is on Christ humbling Himself. The Lord lowered Himself twice, first in emptying Himself in His deity, and then in humbling Himself in His humanity. When the Lord came down to earth, He emptied Himself of the glory, power, position, and image in His deity. As a result of His emptying, those without revelation did not recognize Him and would not acknowledge Him as God, considering Him merely as an ordinary man. In the Godhead the Lord voluntarily chose to be the Son, submitting Himself to the authority of the Father. Hence, He said that the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). The Son’s position was a voluntary choice of our Lord. In the Godhead there is full harmony. In the Godhead there is equality, yet it is happily arranged that the Father should be the Head and that the Son should submit. The Father became the representation of authority, and the Son became the representation of submission.
  12. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jul '16 12:23
    THE WAY THE LORD CAME OUT OF HIS DIVINE FORM AND THE WAY HE RETURNED

    Concerning His deity, the Lord was equal with God. But His being the Lord was something given to Him by God. Being made the Lord is something that happened after He emptied Himself in His deity. The deity of the Lord Jesus is something that is based on what He is. Being God is His original position. But His attainment of the position of Lord is based on what He has done. When He laid aside His divine form to fully maintain the principle of submission and subsequently ascended to the heavens, God accorded to Him the position of Lord. Based on Himself, He is God. Based on His attainment, He is Lord. This lordship was not originally present in the Godhead.

    This portion in Philippians 2 is very difficult to explain and very controversial. But it is also a most divine passage. Today we have to come to this passage with our shoes off, standing on holy ground. It seems as if there was a conference in the Godhead in the beginning in which a plan was made to create the universe. In this plan the divine persons of the Godhead agreed with each other and came to the understanding that the Father would be the representation of authority. But if there was only authority without submission, authority could not be established, because authority is not something isolated. Hence, there must be submission in the universe. Two kinds of creatures were created in the universe. The first kind was the angels—spirits. The second kind was man—souls. God’s foreknowledge foresaw the rebellion of the angels and the failure of man. God’s authority cannot be built upon the angels or upon the descendants of Adam. In the Godhead there was a harmonious decision that authority would be established first within the Godhead. From that time on, there was a distinction in operation of the Father and the Son. One day the Son willingly emptied Himself to become a created man as the representation of submission to authority. It was the creature that had rebelled. Therefore, only the submission of a creature could establish God’s authority. It was man who sinned and rebelled. Therefore, only through the submission of a man could God’s authority be established. This is why the Lord had to come to the earth to become a man and to be the same as a creature in every way.


    From Authority and Submission by Watchman Nee, Living Stream Ministry.

    http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=09
  13. Standard memberRemoved
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    27 Jul '16 12:33
    Originally posted by sonship
    On what do you base #2? This is belief I disagree with since God cannot die.


    If Jesus was only a sinless man He could only die for one person.
    Being God-man He can die for more than one person. His death is good for all mankind, especially of those who believe in Him.

    The good man's death is only good for one person.
    The God-man's de ...[text shortened]... death carried out by God incarnate as a man.
    As God-man He can die and be raised again.
    If Jesus was only a sinless man He could only die for one person.
    Being God-man He can die for more than one person. His death is good for all mankind, especially of those who believe in Him.


    Wrong... Jesus is not "only a sinless man". He is the sinless son of God.
    He, God, impregnated Mary. He is His son and very much qualified to be the lamb for all people.
  14. Standard memberRemoved
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    27 Jul '16 12:36
    Originally posted by sonship
    On what do you base #2? This is belief I disagree with since God cannot die.



    Why must Christ be God in order for His redemption to be so effective ?

    In Jehovah ALONE is there righteousness and justification.

    [b] " It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength.

    To Him shall [i]me ...[text shortened]... iving forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17,18)
    [/b]
    This is an alternative choice to reach your conclusions.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    27 Jul '16 12:513 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Wrong... Jesus is not "only a sinless man". He is the sinless son of God.


    Yes. He is the Son of God. I didn't contradict this at all. I affirm it.


    He, God, impregnated Mary. He is His son and very much qualified to be the lamb for all people.


    This Holy Spirit Who is God went in and a God-man came out of Mary.
    More than just a miraculous birth without a male seed occurred. This conceiving of the Holy Spirit was God the Son going forth from eternity to be clothed in His own creation.

    The prophecy of Micah 5:2 proves that more than just the miraculous creation of a child in a virgin, this was the going forth from eternity of this Ruler of Israel.


    " (But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, So little among the thousands of Judah,

    From you there will come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler in Israel; And His goings forth are from ancient times, From the days of eternity.) " (Micah 5:2)


    He did not start goings forth from the physical birth from Mary. His goings forth have been from days of eternity. And this would explain His equality with God not being grasped in His humbling of Himself to take on the form of a man - the submissive and obedient slave of a man.
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