1. Melbourne, Australia
    Joined
    17 Feb '04
    Moves
    49981
    15 May '11 23:27
    A watch is designed. It's also made. Does the designer make it? Or is it made by a maker and designed by a designer? The watch is made from pieces, raw materials. The watch is one of many watches, gradually improved upon to make better and better ones.

    Is the universe designed and made. Are the designer and maker the same or different? Was there raw material to make it from? If so, where did this come from. If not, how was anything made? Is this universe one of many designed and made? Is it better than some and worse than some?
  2. Joined
    27 Sep '06
    Moves
    9651
    15 May '11 23:49
    Originally posted by amannion
    A watch is designed. It's also made. Does the designer make it? Or is it made by a maker and designed by a designer? The watch is made from pieces, raw materials. The watch is one of many watches, gradually improved upon to make better and better ones.

    Is the universe designed and made. Are the designer and maker the same or different? Was there raw mate ...[text shortened]... de? Is this universe one of many designed and made? Is it better than some and worse than some?
    You must not be asking me. 😉 This seems to be a philosophical approach to the topic of the origin of the universe.

    So I'll give my perspective.

    None of us was there. Therefore we must find the source for the answers. There are many sources claiming differing answers. We're in deep now. Who knows the truth?
  3. Melbourne, Australia
    Joined
    17 Feb '04
    Moves
    49981
    16 May '11 00:00
    Originally posted by josephw
    You must not be asking me. 😉 This seems to be a philosophical approach to the topic of the origin of the universe.

    So I'll give my perspective.

    None of us was there. Therefore we must find the source for the answers. There are many sources claiming differing answers. We're in deep now. Who knows the truth?
    I guess I'm interested in this analogy of the designer in your ID perspective.
    If we use this analogy then we have a whole lot of issues that can be raised. I'm interested in how you, or others, consider these issues.
  4. Wat?
    Joined
    16 Aug '05
    Moves
    76863
    16 May '11 08:25
    Originally posted by amannion
    A watch is designed. It's also made. Does the designer make it? Or is it made by a maker and designed by a designer? The watch is made from pieces, raw materials. The watch is one of many watches, gradually improved upon to make better and better ones.

    Is the universe designed and made. Are the designer and maker the same or different? Was there raw mate ...[text shortened]... de? Is this universe one of many designed and made? Is it better than some and worse than some?
    Your initial analogy is flawed. A watch is designed by a designer yes. It isn't made, it is manufactured, and there's a big difference between those words. The designer learns from mistakes and improves design, as does the manufacturer.

    To compare a watch being made and manufactured with a Universe that happened, and doesn't learn from mistakes (apart from animalistic species which inhabit it) isn't quite the correct analogy.

    The Universe wasn't designed as I said, but merely happened. There are no learning concepts within the components of the Universe that teach themselves to better themselves. The knowledge that the nano-sized components of the Universe have has never changed, and exist today as they have always done. They just 'move' about.

    So, in essence, your question about a designer and 'maker' is disillusioned, as things that happen are not manufactured to happen, nor with regard to the Universe, do they improve themselves.

    -m.
  5. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    16 May '11 08:42
    Originally posted by josephw
    None of us was there. Therefore we must find the source for the answers.
    That does not logically follow. How does being there give you answers? Why is 'the source' the only alternative to being there?
  6. England
    Joined
    15 Nov '03
    Moves
    33497
    16 May '11 10:01
    a fermer ploughs the feild, plants the seeds, then waitsw to harvest , he is still the farmer but the earth watered, and nurished it,
  7. Melbourne, Australia
    Joined
    17 Feb '04
    Moves
    49981
    16 May '11 22:26
    Originally posted by mikelom
    Your initial analogy is flawed. A watch is designed by a designer yes. It isn't made, it is manufactured, and there's a big difference between those words. The designer learns from mistakes and improves design, as does the manufacturer.

    To compare a watch being made and manufactured with a Universe that happened, and doesn't learn from mistakes (apart fro ...[text shortened]... factured to happen, nor with regard to the Universe, do they improve themselves.

    -m.
    I don't believe the analogy. I don't believe th universe was designed or made.
    I'm interested in the flaws in the analogy and wondering what others who actually believe this ID rubbish think.
  8. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    17 May '11 00:551 edit
    Originally posted by stoker
    a fermer ploughs the feild, plants the seeds, then waitsw to harvest , he is still the farmer but the earth watered, and nurished it,
    But the designer is the one behind the ability that the earth has to make things grow and reproduce. All that is needed is in the soil and then water and sun, etc to make a plant grow, is here and it works perfectly unless man ruins something in that chain.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
    The Near Genius
    Fort Gordon
    Joined
    24 Jan '11
    Moves
    12695
    17 May '11 05:37
    Originally posted by mikelom
    Your initial analogy is flawed. A watch is designed by a designer yes. It isn't made, it is manufactured, and there's a big difference between those words. The designer learns from mistakes and improves design, as does the manufacturer.

    To compare a watch being made and manufactured with a Universe that happened, and doesn't learn from mistakes (apart fro ...[text shortened]... factured to happen, nor with regard to the Universe, do they improve themselves.

    -m.
    If you used the this same kind of logic playing chess, you would be
    lucky to win a game in a trillion years playing speed chess. So it
    just happened. Ha! Ha! Ha! That's a funny one. You must be joking.
  10. Cape Town
    Joined
    14 Apr '05
    Moves
    52945
    17 May '11 06:10
    Originally posted by galveston75
    But the designer is the one behind the ability that the earth has to make things grow and reproduce. All that is needed is in the soil and then water and sun, etc to make a plant grow, is here and it works perfectly unless man ruins something in that chain.
    Surely man too is part of the design? What if it wasn't man but say a heard of Zebra that ruin it? Why would that be different?
  11. Standard memberdj2becker
    Tiger's ghost
    Shetland cemetery
    Joined
    01 Oct '04
    Moves
    11851
    17 May '11 07:34
    Originally posted by amannion
    I don't believe the analogy. I don't believe th universe was designed or made.
    I'm interested in the flaws in the analogy and wondering what others who actually believe this ID rubbish think.
    Ah I see. Why don't you state your beliefs about how the universe came about and enlighten the rest of the world?
  12. Wat?
    Joined
    16 Aug '05
    Moves
    76863
    17 May '11 08:20
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    If you used the this same kind of logic playing chess, you would be
    lucky to win a game in a trillion years playing speed chess. So it
    just happened. Ha! Ha! Ha! That's a funny one. You must be joking.
    You seem to have selected the part of my post which excludes animalistic ability to adapt.

    Are you joking? 😀

    -m. 😉
  13. Wat?
    Joined
    16 Aug '05
    Moves
    76863
    17 May '11 08:21
    Originally posted by amannion
    I don't believe the analogy. I don't believe th universe was designed or made.
    I'm interested in the flaws in the analogy and wondering what others who actually believe this ID rubbish think.
    Then we agree to agree. The Universe simply happened. Q.E.D. 😏

    -m.
  14. Joined
    19 Jul '08
    Moves
    77354
    17 May '11 08:32
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Surely man too is part of the design? What if it wasn't man but say a heard of Zebra that ruin it? Why would that be different?
    Of course he is. But man "Adam and Eve" decided to go against God with the decision to live without God's direction and wisdom that he would have no doubt given as time went by, to be fully educated on all aspects of taking care of this planet. Just as any parent would or should do with their children.
    But now because of not having God direct and teach us his wisdom and with the greed and non caring use of the earth and the depleating it's resourses by man, God's perfect design of this planet has been greatly altered.
  15. Joined
    26 May '08
    Moves
    2120
    17 May '11 11:21
    When we talk about “designer” and “design” on this thread, are we restricting ourselves to the strict standard meaning of those words that necessarily imply intelligence with intent or can we include a non-standard meaning that does not necessarily imply intelligence with intent such as in statements like “the designer of animal anatomy is mindless evolution” or “the snowflake has a microscopic geometric design” etc?

    If the former then that would beg the question of what premise is there for the universe has a “designer” (analogy with the watch doesn’t help because we KNOW the watch has a “designer” ).
    If the latter then everything physical with order is “designed” whether intelligently or not so to say the universe is “designed” isn't saying a lot!
Back to Top