1. Joined
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    07 Nov '06 23:06
    If God made everything even than angles than did God put in the devil that he would go against God. Did God doom the devil to Hell? Thanks Kevin
  2. Territories Unknown
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    08 Nov '06 00:32
    Originally posted by Kevin Mcfarland
    If God made everything even than angles than did God put in the devil that he would go against God. Did God doom the devil to Hell? Thanks Kevin
    If you're able to get your mind around this, you're ahead of about 98% of the folks who haunt this forum...

    ...the free will of man and angels co-exist with the sovereignty of God.
  3. Joined
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    08 Nov '06 02:35
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    If you're able to get your mind around this, you're ahead of about 98% of the folks who haunt this forum...

    ...the free will of man and angels co-exist with the sovereignty of God.
    Do you consider yourself within that 98% or the minority 2%?
  4. Joined
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    08 Nov '06 12:48
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    If you're able to get your mind around this, you're ahead of about 98% of the folks who haunt this forum...

    ...the free will of man and angels co-exist with the sovereignty of God.
    But, given that he is omniscient, god knew that Lucifer would rebel. In which case Lucifer did not have free will as it was already preordained.
  5. Joined
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    08 Nov '06 20:25
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    If you're able to get your mind around this, you're ahead of about 98% of the folks who haunt this forum...

    ...the free will of man and angels co-exist with the sovereignty of God.
    where in the bible does it say or even point that free will of man and angels co-exist? from what I can tell God was around before angels and for sure man. Now if u mean that we have a free will and can do anything we want and that God just knows the end from the begininng than yes I understand that. but I am talking about that before satan ever fell or rebeld he had to have evil come from some where? This is a real question that I have and help with it and input would be gratefull hope I explained it ok.
  6. Territories Unknown
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    08 Nov '06 21:13
    Originally posted by ckoh1965
    Do you consider yourself within that 98% or the minority 2%?
    I don't see very many others here who have the ability to:
    1. Say it
    2. Support it

    So, yeah: I suppose that puts me in the minority. Ain't I just special?
  7. Territories Unknown
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    08 Nov '06 21:16
    Originally posted by sugiezd
    But, given that he is omniscient, god knew that Lucifer would rebel. In which case Lucifer did not have free will as it was already preordained.
    A distinction exists between preordained and foreknown. Thus, the co-existence of (possibly antithetical) free wills. To be sure, it's not an easy concept to understand, but once understood the picture begins to make a heckuva lot more sense.
  8. Territories Unknown
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    08 Nov '06 21:19
    Originally posted by Kevin Mcfarland
    where in the bible does it say or even point that free will of man and angels co-exist? from what I can tell God was around before angels and for sure man. Now if u mean that we have a free will and can do anything we want and that God just knows the end from the begininng than yes I understand that. but I am talking about that before satan ever fell ...[text shortened]... real question that I have and help with it and input would be gratefull hope I explained it ok.
    Doctrine is compiled from all of Scripture: here a little, there a little. While we would love to have all information in encyclopedic delineation (which is more akin to contemporary understanding of order of knowledge), God did not see fit to mete out doctrine according to such an outline.

    He allows the chaff to grow among the wheat.
  9. Melbourne, Australia
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    08 Nov '06 21:27
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    A distinction exists between preordained and foreknown. Thus, the co-existence of (possibly antithetical) free wills. To be sure, it's not an easy concept to understand, but once understood the picture begins to make a heckuva lot more sense.
    Or you could take my option - there is no God.
    Now that makes sense!
  10. Territories Unknown
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    08 Nov '06 21:30
    Originally posted by amannion
    Or you could take my option - there is no God.
    Now that makes sense!
    But--- as Kevin said in his opening question--- if. I say yes, you say no. I say stay, you say go. You say goodbye when I say hello.
  11. Melbourne, Australia
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    08 Nov '06 21:35
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    But--- as Kevin said in his opening question--- if. I say yes, you say no. I say stay, you say go. You say goodbye when I say hello.
    I am known as being a disagreeable prick, but I'm sure we could agree on something Freaky.
    And I don't actually recall that being in the opening question.
  12. Territories Unknown
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    08 Nov '06 21:40
    Originally posted by amannion
    I am known as being a disagreeable prick, but I'm sure we could agree on something Freaky.
    And I don't actually recall that being in the opening question.
    From the original post:

    "If God made everything..."

    I am known as being a disagreeable prick...
    Straining... every... ounce... of... strength...
  13. Melbourne, Australia
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    08 Nov '06 22:06
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    From the original post:

    "If God made everything..."

    [b]I am known as being a disagreeable prick...

    Straining... every... ounce... of... strength...[/b]
    Oh that if!
    Well why didn't you say so?
  14. Joined
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    08 Nov '06 23:23
    am i making my question clear to understand? the idea pepole blame the devil can the devil blame God. taken with my other posts I hope u understand my question. Thanks Kevin
  15. Territories Unknown
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    08 Nov '06 23:33
    Originally posted by Kevin Mcfarland
    am i making my question clear to understand? the idea pepole blame the devil can the devil blame God. taken with my other posts I hope u understand my question. Thanks Kevin
    The same weight is found for both arguments: none. God no more made Lucifer decide as he did than Satan can make you decide one way or another. Everyone decides for themselves, influenced perhaps, but not forced.
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