Originally posted by vishvahetuWell what are you waiting for?
But when a person becomes fed-up with birth, disease, old age and death and suffering, they may take to the study of Vedanta Sutra and find out how to get out of the illusion, and return home to Godhead., and end the game of illusionary life of living in a body made of pus, stool, urine, mucus, blood, bone etc.
Originally posted by vishvahetu=====================================
When we come to this world, we are coverd by maya (illusion), so we may forget who we really are,(spirit) because it would be impossible for the "all knowing perfect spirit", to accept a material body made of dust, unless it was under some type of illusion.
The soul is sleeping and dreaming this whole existence (material life is not real)
The Holy n ...[text shortened]... e of illusionary life of living in a body made of pus, stool, urine, mucus, blood, bone etc.
When we come to this world, we are coverd by maya (illusion), so we may forget who we really are,(spirit) because it would be impossible for the "all knowing perfect spirit", to accept a material body made of dust, unless it was under some type of illusion.
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Why did this problem come about ?
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The soul is sleeping and dreaming this whole existence (material life is not real)
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I was enthralled with Zen Buddhism for a period of time. It also said something similar about the illusion of the physical. One day I was looking out the window and saw a young man crossing the street. A car was approaching him. I noticed that he quickened his pace in order to get out of the way of the car.
That afternoon, I decided that the physical world was not an illusions in a practical sense. It may be an incomplete representation of the total reality.
But incompleteness is not necessarily illusion. It just means something else is needed to complete the total perception of reality.
The salvation through Christ is very practical and involves ALL parts of the human being including the immaterial part and the environment.
Notice we are not left as ethereal clouds of who knows what drifting in a bright haze of who knows what. His salvation covers all three parts of the human being:
"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:23)
Not just the spirit of man is preserved. Not just the spirit and the soul are preserved. But the whole and entire human creation benefits from His salvastion - "spirit and soul and body be preserved compete".
Your mysticism denies a legitimate portion of my humanity. My soul and my body as well as my spirit are precious to God.
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The Holy name of the Lord is non different than the Lord, and when the name is spoken and chanted, it purifies the contamination of the material conditioning and illusion....the more one chants the name, the more cleansing affect takes place. (only Gods name is non-different to God) not anyone else.
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Do you know that the Bible speaks of calling on the name of the Lord hundreds of times. Somewhere between 500 to 800 references are in the Bible related to calling on the name of God.
Here is just one:
"What shall I return to Jehovah for all His benefits toward me ? I will take up the cup of salvation and call upon the name of Jehovah".
Here salvation is depicted as a drink. And to call upon the name of God is to drink in salvation. There are many many references to calling on the name of God and of the Lord Jesus. And calling on the Lord Jesus is something I practice to enjoy His availability:
" For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all whjo call upon Him; For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom. 9:12,13)
Jesus is rich to all who practice to call upon His name.
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Your new birth is without memories of your previous lives,
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Then how can you repent or have sense of any wrong doing ? If wrong is no longer in your memory, how do you know you have gotten the love of that error out of your being ?
That was not YOUR error. That was someone ELSE'S error. You have no rememberance of that other one. And he or she or it has no realization of yours.
Reincarnation as you believe gives rise to a completely DIFFERENT individual. It is not YOU. And therefore YOU die in your sins.
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but everything you ever said, did, thought are in your subconscious mind....and your subtle body made of mind, false ego. intelligence goes into your new body at conception.
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That is everything I said and did in MY subconscious. That is not everything the previous being said and did in MY subconscious.
The previous life has its record, the next life has its record, and the next life has its particular record.
Your conscience does not convict you of the sins of the previous life. It convicts you of the sins of your life now. How are the sins of the past life cleansed in your lifetime. And how will that benefit the previous one who is now dead and gone ?
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But when the soul has been here in the material world of suffering for millions of births, it has an accumulating affect, and the soul then desires release from this terrible condition, called life.
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Life is a terrible condition ?
So is your deliverance to become non-living like the rocks ?
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So the soul hops, from one body to the next, just like putting on a new set of cloths....the soul puts on a new body.
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Your soul is your soul today. Your soul is not the soul of someone else. It is YOUR soul.
The sins of YOUR soul are YOURS. The sins of someone else's soul are his.
How can you repent of the sins of someone else's soul. You do not even know what they were.
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You are a spiritual being and eternal, there was no time that you did not exist, so when you take another birth, its the same "you", but in a different body....its always the same you, but when you are born, you memory is covered and you must start your new life as if it is the first life, and that is the perfect arrangement of the Lord, so that you can play at being King of the world, or play at being God.
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You cant enjoy this world unless you are in illusion. (and think you are this body)
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That young man who I saw move out of the way of an approaching care WAS in a body. Had he adopted your concept of illusion he might have ignored the danger and been stroke and killed.
Was it not most realistic to move his body out of the way so as not to be damaged or killed ?
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But when a person becomes fed-up with birth, disease, old age and death and suffering, they may take to the study of Vedanta Sutra and find out how to get out of the illusion, and return home to Godhead., and end the game of illusionary life of living in a body made of pus, stool, urine, mucus, blood, bone etc.
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How is it that he left home of Godhead in the first place ?
Why did this wandering inflict the human race ? What went WRONG ?
Edit: “I was enthralled with Zen Buddhism for a period of time.”
What exact part of yours, jaywill, was enthralled with Zen Buddhism? What exactly is Zen to you?
Edit:”It also said something similar about the illusion of the physical.”
No. The physical world is as real as it gets -but lucks of inherent existence. This is the reason why the physical world is called “The Floating World”.
Edit: “One day I was looking out the window and saw a young man crossing the street. A car was approaching him. I noticed that he quickened his pace in order to get out of the way of the car.”
You interacted with other observers in a specific causal field.
Edit: “That afternoon, I decided that the physical world was not an illusions in a practical sense. It may be an incomplete representation of the total reality.”
The physical world is a representation of a specific causal field as you perceive it with your 6 senses, and your 6 senses work well enough so that you can survive, enjoy life and prosper once you follow specific rules. The physical world is not an incomplete but a complete reality. However there are other realities too;
Edit: “But incompleteness is not necessarily illusion. It just means something else is needed to complete the total perception of reality.”
Incompleteness is irrelevant, and also it is a false idea of yours regarding the Zennist term “illusion”. I will tell you in brief what illusion means.
No thing is intrinsically an epistemic instrument or object in a given causal field because both the instrument and the object are mutually established: you saw the man who quickened his pace in order to get out of the way of the car. This means you established the objects “man and car” by giving cognitive access to them, and your successful interaction with these observers established your evaluation of the mind and thus your thought as a trustworthy route you used subjectively in order to decode a specific event. However neither the man nor the car have inherent existence as epistemic objects because this is not a reflection of their intrinsic nature; you evaluate them as epistemic objects because you regard them as such in the context of a specific reflective equilibrium you reached.
Furthermore, since the seemingly inherent existence of both the man and the car is a mind-only ascription of yours, your sentences (and everybody’s sentences) fail to connect up with the world by means of a set of objectively existent structural similarities because there is simply no sufficiently substantial relation that would allow you (and every other human being) to bind together world and word at the fundamental level. Methinks the sole thing we can do is to bring up a mind-only cause-effect chain from a subjective point to our present use of the term. Since this causal relation is mind-only and subjectively constructed, the causal chain we perceive is not a relation that functions objectively, independent of the concepts we employ, and thus the Zen practitioner will just describe this whole approach as “illusion” -keeping always in mind that finally “...the mountains are mountains”
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Originally posted by jaywillYou have read my post, and somehow put your strange angle to it.....I did not mention incompleteness, and I did not mention drifting in etheral clouds, and I did not mention denial of the soul, and I did not mention wrong not being in your consciousness, and I did not mention non living rocks, and I did not mention that you should not take care of yourself and get run down by a car.....so anyway I,ll try and explain further.
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When we come to this world, we are coverd by maya (illusion), so we may forget who we really are,(spirit) because it would be impossible for the "all knowing perfect spirit", to accept a material body made of dust, unless it was under some type of illusion.
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Why did this p st place ?
Why did this wandering inflict the human race ? What went WRONG ?[/b]
We came to this world because when we were in the spiritual world, we had the desire to be God and be independent, (we were envious of God) so because God always forefills our desires, this world was created for us to play at being God (being independent) but we can never be independent from God because without God we dont exist.
God cannot set us up as being God for real, because there is one God, and God will not set us up, in opposition to him.
The only way we can play at being God, is to be God in an illusion, and think we are independent....so we see everyone in this world thinking they are so powerfull and independent and they are the certre of the universe.
When we finally realize what we are in truth (servant of God, and not God) we are ready to take to the spiritual life, and when we do, the illusion of the world is released, and we become free and happy, and in that condition we can develope our lost love for God, and return home to the spiritual world.
The illusion of the world is the perfect creation of God, which allows us to accept this material condition, of thinking we are this rotting body and trying to squeeze as much pleasure from the five senses as possible.
Spirituial life is meant to wake us up from this illusion, and to know that we are really spirit, and to live the spiritual life, and not the false material life of sense pleasure, which can be obtained by hogs, dogs, camels and asses.
Now, ask yourself a question; why do people (if they have only one life) get born in different circumstances, for instance, one person will be born deaf dumb and blind in a poor family,... and another person will be born in a wealthy family and have a healthy body and good education......so why would your God give people one life and make them so different?
The answer is because when a person is born, in one condition or the other condition, it is because of their Karma or past deeds in their previous life, and the person who gets the good birth, has been pious in their previous life, and the other person has been very impious.....and this is how reincarnation works, you will pay for your piety or impiety in the previous life, by taking a good birth or by taking a not so good birth, in the present life.
If you only had one life, then you cannot explain why each person gets different births.