1. Standard membersonship
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    21 Aug '16 23:451 edit
    The very first verse of the Bible -

    " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1)


    The very last verse of the Bible -

    " The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen." (Rev. 22:21)


    This is the beginning and the conclusion of God's speaking to the human race. What is the difference and what is the connection between these two mighty bookends of the Bible ?
  2. Standard membersonship
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    22 Aug '16 00:06
    I explore some matters concerning the first and last passages from the Bible.

    Genesis 1:1 was EASY for God to do.

    Revelation 22:21 involves God in considerably more challenges.

    Genesis 1:1 has God exercise His great creating power.

    Revelation 22:21 calls for God to do something more difficult. He has to WORK HIMSELF into man.

    Genesis 1:1 is completely out there and outside of man's being, even though man is also a creation of God.

    Revelation 22:21 represents God's far more difficult purpose to work Himself into the inward parts of man's being.

    "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the saints." means Jesus Christ is in a form in which He can live in man. It is much more a matter of man's inward insides.


    Genesis 1:1 is FOR Revelation 22:21. God created all things for His eternal purpose to become a man and to live in man duplicatng, mass producing, the standard model of a man mingled with God - a Godman.

    The grace WITH all the sanctified ones - "saints" is for God to live in these people set apart for the eternal plan of God.
  3. Standard membersonship
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    22 Aug '16 00:18
    The first verse of the Bible is about God creating the universe.
    The last verse of the Bible is about Jesus Christ living in the saints being the grace within.

    The two bookends of the Bible are nicely tied together by this verse in Zechariah 12.

    " The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him." (Zech. 12:1)


    The heavens are for the earth.
    The earth is for man.
    And man has a spirit within him in order to receive God the Spirit.


    God stretched for the universe for man. Even now it is stretching forth and expanding.
    God laid the foundation of the earth.
    Upon the earth He created man and saw to it that there is something in man which closely corresponds to what God is - Spirit.

    He formed the spirit in man that man may have something like a radio antennae to pick up the Divine Radio waves which is the Uncreated Divine Person of God Himself.

    Between the creating of the universe in Genesis 1:1 and the prophecy and vision of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21,22 God works Himself into His saints. God the Spirit and the Spirit of Jesus Christ wroughts Himself INTO man.

    The antennae, the spirit of man, picks up the divine Spirit of the processed and consummated Triune God who has incarnated, lived, died, rose, been exalted, and imparts His life giving Spirit into the regenerated human spirit that -

    "The grace of the Lord Jesus may indwell the saved human beings that they forever may live God, express God in man, manifest God in man, for His glory and for their enjoyment.
  4. Standard membersonship
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    22 Aug '16 01:21
    From God's Eternal Plan by Watchman Nee.

    CHAPTER SIX

    GOD’S PURPOSE IN CREATING MAN

    Genesis 1:28 tells us that after God created man, He blessed him and told him to be “fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion” over all things. On the one hand, God wants to deal with death by life through man’s multiplication, and on the other hand, God gave Adam the authority to have dominion. This position and authority once belonged to Satan, but now God has replaced him with man.

    Genesis 2:15 says, “And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.” This shows that there was decay and corruption. Hence, there is the need for man to recover the situation. From these two passages we see that God has a fourfold intention in creating man: (1) multiplying—dealing with death; (2) having dominion—dealing with insubordination; (3) keeping—dealing with attacks; and (4) dressing—dealing with corruption.

    THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOD, MAN, AND SATAN

    Moreover, Genesis 2 shows us two trees, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (vv. 9, 16-17). The principle of the tree of life is dependence on God, and the principle of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is independence and alienation from God. These are the acts of Satan. God’s will is done in heaven, while Satan’s will is carried out in the air. Man’s independent right is exercised on earth. Now the question is which side man will stand on. Eating of the tree of life means to join oneself to God, whereas eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil means to join oneself to Satan.


    http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=27
  5. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    22 Aug '16 02:103 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    From [b]God's Eternal Plan by Watchman Nee.

    CHAPTER SIX

    GOD’S PURPOSE IN CREATING MAN

    Genesis 1:28 tells us that after God created man, He blessed him and told him to be “fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion” over all things. On the one hand, God wants to deal with death b ...[text shortened]... evil means to join oneself to Satan.


    http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=27[/b]
    "dominion over all things"

    Including other men, to the point of nearly wiping out all "men"?

    No,I don't like this dominion business. How about living in harmony with all life?

    BOOM! How could you possibly say your biblical quote is even remotely equal (let alone superior) to what i just wrote?
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    22 Aug '16 02:19
    Originally posted by sonship
    The very first verse of the Bible -

    [b] " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Genesis 1:1)


    The very last verse of the Bible -

    " The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen." (Rev. 22:21)


    This is the beginning and the conclusion of God's speaking to the human ra ...[text shortened]... at is the difference and what is the connection between these two mighty bookends of the Bible ?[/b]
    "Grace" , few people have it, no one really strives for it (it doesn't pay the bills.


    As for the first 6 (or is it 7) days of creation , are you serious? ... clearly you are, which is disturbing but unsurprising and, imo, disapointing.
    The main reason: you guys spend so much time and effort in trying to disprove evolution, when alll things said and done , the origins of "man" doesn't really help solve todays problems. Even if the 6 day creation story was proven beyond doubt to be true, what purpose would that serve? (I suspect only negative ones)

    'In the begining ' .. so do you also subscribe to the idea that eternity has a start?
  7. SubscriberSuzianne
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    22 Aug '16 08:38
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    "Grace" , few people have it, no one really strives for it (it doesn't pay the bills.


    As for the first 6 (or is it 7) days of creation , are you serious? ... clearly you are, which is disturbing but unsurprising and, imo, disapointing.
    The main reason: you guys spend so much time and effort in trying to disprove evolution, when alll things said a ...[text shortened]... e ones)

    'In the begining ' .. so do you also subscribe to the idea that eternity has a start?
    I saw no "disproving" of evolution in his post.

    You're one of these who claim that creation and evolution cannot co-exist, aren't you? There is no reason they must be at odds.
  8. Standard membersonship
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    22 Aug '16 12:39
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    "dominion over all things"

    Including other men, to the point of nearly wiping out all "men"?

    No,I don't like this dominion business. How about living in harmony with all life?

    BOOM! How could you possibly say your biblical quote is even remotely equal (let alone superior) to what i just wrote?
    "dominion over all things"


    You left out image in the pair image and dominion .
    Man was created to express God in conjunction with having dominion over creation and especially over God's enemies in the spiritual realm.

    While you choke at the term dominion I consider not the failed Adam but the example of Jesus the Son of God.

    Domnion - over disease, over shortage of food, over sin, over condemnation, over the chaotic weather, over storms, over food shortage, over human disputes and failures, over injustice, over poverty, over death itself.

    Here's the man that God intended. Jesus is what God meant by human being. And He expressed God's attributes within human virtues and held authoritative dominion even over Satan and death


    Including other men, to the point of nearly wiping out all "men"?


    Human government was not instituted by God until after the flood of Noah. When Cain murdered Abel God forbade that any other man would take vengeance of Cain for his murder (Genesis 4:14,15) . Capital punishment and therefore human government was instituded by God to arrest man's further slide into degradation after the flood of Noah. (Genesis 9:5,6)


    No,I don't like this dominion business. How about living in harmony with all life?


    That is probably because you are reasoning about it from the standpoint of the fallen man. You are considering only dominion and not man expressing God, manifesting God's holiness, righteousness, and glory.

    While you give lip service to not caring for human dominion, I am sure you are ok with every form of advancement of technology which seeks to have that rulership and dominion over the universe.

    Man cannot but attempt to achieve that dominion without God. All your inventions are toward a view of having rulership over God's creation through knowledge of the laws of nature and the advancement of technology.



    BOOM! How could you possibly say your biblical quote is even remotely equal (let alone superior) to what i just wrote?


    We have not only Bible quotes. We have a splendid life of Jesus Christ to manifest in history what God originally intended for man and the destiny of those who are saved in His salvation.

    Along the way from the fallen Adam to the resurrected and exalted Christ there were many lesser examples of this image and dominion with the people of God.
    I think they were all quite wonderful. Even though at times righteous warfare was called for, ie. the conquest of Canaan.

    God wants man to take in to himself the life of God, express God, and reign over God's creation on God's behalf.

    You may not like this because God is involved. But a godless human race cannot but strive to achieve something like the same thing.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    22 Aug '16 13:04
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    "Grace" , few people have it, no one really strives for it (it doesn't pay the bills.


    You couldn't tell that to someone like George Muller who ran many orphanages completely on faith.

    But more people should experience seeking FIRST the kingdom of God and His righteousness to discover that all other things will be added to them.

    Oh, dominion also includes dominion over anxiety. Don't you think God is concerned with your bills if you seek first His kingdom and His righteousness ?

    It is good to enter into the "school of grace" where one learns that in Christ we can walk upon the waves of anxiety, having dominion over our fears in trust of our heavenly Father.


    As for the first 6 (or is it 7) days of creation , are you serious? ... clearly you are, which is disturbing but unsurprising and, imo, disapointing.
    The main reason: you guys spend so much time and effort in trying to disprove evolution, when alll things said and done , the origins of "man" doesn't really help solve todays problems. Even if the 6 day creation story was proven beyond doubt to be true, what purpose would that serve? (I suspect only negative ones)


    This thread was not intended to be a Young Earth verses Old Earth debate or a Evolution verses Creationism or Intelligent Design debate.

    I am going on the presupposition that however long ago or however long the process of duration in the beginning God created the universe.

    My main point has been that this was easier than what God wants to do with this creation, That is namely to work Himself into man to be one with man.

    If man was just a piece of material it would not be hard. But man, god's creation, has his own will, his own thought, his own intention about many matters.

    The greater challenge for God then is to wrought His mind, His thought, His plan into man that He may achieve an incorporation of God in man - a perfect mingling.

    God will obtain this. And in the process He encourages His believers that the grace of Jesus Christ, the standard model of this incorporation, is with all the saints.

    You should appreciate that the name Jesus is the Greek for Joshua. Joshua in the Old Testament was a Captain and a General leading the army of God into victory. so Jesus [joshua] is the Captian of salvation leading many sons into the glorious expression of the divine being.

    Yes, Jesus is a Savior. But even more He is the "Captian of salvation" leading many sons of God into the "promise land" of God thoroughly expressed in a divine / human union, a mingling of God and man for eternity future.


    'In the begining ' .. so do you also subscribe to the idea that eternity has a start?


    No. But I am a creature bound in time and is likely only to be able to think in terms of time.

    In the beginning God precludes that God always was. You know this. God is uncreated. God always was and always will be.

    In Genesis 1:1 He begins time and space and creation. In Revelation 21 and 22 He has worked His life into man for the corporate expression of God mingled in life with man.

    As He is accomplishing this plan, along the way, and through many trials, He reminds those who believe in Christ that the grace of Christ is with them.

    Though this Revelation is a prophecy of many things which MUST come to pass, there is still the need for Grace to empower, supply, enable, the saints in the process towards the final goal.

    " The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen." (Rev. 22:21)


    Keep in mind the fact that when John saw the New Jerusalem he was a kind of divine time traveler. He saw me there. Maybe he saw YOU there as well. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to assure this.

    At any rate, John has seen that it cannot fail that God will obtain His eternal purpose.
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    I love it.
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    22 Aug '16 19:16
    Originally posted by sonship
    "dominion over all things"


    You left out [b]image
    in the pair image and dominion .
    Man was created to express God in conjunction with having dominion over creation and especially over God's enemies in the spiritual realm.

    While you choke at the term dominion I consider not the failed Adam but the exampl ...[text shortened]... s involved. But a godless human race cannot but strive to achieve something like the same thing.[/b]
    Have you ever considered what Jehovah God said to Baruch at

    (Jeremiah 45:5) But you are seeking great things for yourself. Stop seeking such things.”’ “‘For I am about to bring a calamity on all flesh,’ declares Jehovah, ?
  12. Standard membersonship
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    23 Aug '16 15:531 edit
    Christ to be Head over all things including those "under the earth" for now.
    in the future when death is done away, there will be nothing left "under the earth".

    From God's eternal Plan by Watchman Nee

    The book of Ephesians tells us what the Lord has obtained and will obtain from the time of His resurrection until the time of the new heaven and new earth. This is why it speaks of the Lord being the Head over all things in the heavens and on the earth; it does not speak of Him being the Head of all things under the earth, because by then there will no longer be anything under the earth. The book of Philippians tells us what He has obtained from the time of His resurrection until His second coming. This is why it says that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are “in heaven and on earth and under the earth” (2:10). Today there are many things under the earth that are still unsettled.


    http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?cid=1D

    Same book

    God’s goal is twofold: First, it is for all things to manifest Christ. In other words, it is for Christ to be Head over all things. Second, it is for man to be like Christ, to have His life and His glory. Today many believers on earth are lacking in Christ, and many things are manifesting Satan. But God will eventually reach His goal. One day, all things will manifest Christ. We have to pray that we will gain more Christ and manifest Him more so that God’s will can be fulfilled soon.
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    23 Aug '16 21:30
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    I saw no "disproving" of evolution in his post.

    You're one of these who claim that creation and evolution cannot co-exist, aren't you? There is no reason they must be at odds.
    No,no. I believe they can co-exist.

    Please read my posts more carefully 🙂

    But don't think I think I'm more right than you. Cause I don't
  14. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    23 Aug '16 21:361 edit
    Jaywill, thank you for your replies. I don't agree with a lot, however I will just say one thing:
    Do you think dominion over life could be achieved through equality in life? Or rather recognizing the equality in life?

    This dominion thing has seen many Christian crusaders see it as a sign to dominate other people as well . like I said: Dangerous, as history has proven time and time again. Just one reason why people like me don't subscribe to Christianity despite it having many fine points.
  15. Standard membersonship
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    24 Aug '16 00:106 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Jaywill, thank you for your replies. I don't agree with a lot, however I will just say one thing:
    Do you think dominion over life could be achieved through equality in life? Or rather recognizing the equality in life?

    This dominion thing has seen many Christian crusaders see it as a sign to dominate other people as well . like I said: Dangerous, as ...[text shortened]... ne reason why people like me don't subscribe to Christianity despite it having many fine points.
    Please read this aloud.
    Please read all these passages aloud.

    If you wish to know what God has in mind for the full consummation of this image and dominion realized finally, you have to study Revelation especially chapters 21 and 22 about the conclusion of His purpose.

    Please notice such matters as these:

    " And He [God] will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be crying or sorrow or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away. " (21:4)

    "And He said to me, They have come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely." (v.6)

    "And there will no longer be a curse. And the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His slaves will serve Him." (22:3)


    You should consider "slaves" here or "servants" to be "enslaved to righteousness"(Rom. 6:18) . IE. They cannot but live and express the highest level of perfect human morality.

    "These are those who come out of the great tribulation ..." (7:14b)


    In this particular passage "out of the great tribulation" means coming out of the entire world history since the fall of man.

    " ... they have washed their robes" [signifying behavior] and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Because of this they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in his temple; and He who sits upon the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They will not hunger any more, neither will they thirst any more, neither will the sun beat upon them, nor any heat;

    For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and guide them to springs of waters of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (7:14b-17)


    You understand of course, the implications of the phrase "wipe away every tear from their eyes." This mean this image and dominion results in the elimination of human dissatisfaction.

    Shortage is no more.
    Human woe is no more.
    Unrighteousness, injustice, oppression, NO MORE.

    " And night will be no more; and they have no need of the light of a lamp and the light of the sun, for the Lord God will shine upon them; and they will reign forever and ever." (22:5)


    This does not mean day and night will not be in the new heaven and the new earth. It means that in the capital, New Jerusalem, because God Himself is the light there is no need of the sun or the moon.

    We cannot now know exactly what it would mean to the universe for God to create all things NEW.

    "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more." (21:1)


    This completion of God's full salvation work means a new universe in which righteousness reigns.

    "But according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." ( 2 Peter 3:13)


    Creation itself will be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glory of the liberty of the manifested sons of God.

    " .. the creation itself will also be freed from the slavery of corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." (Rom. 8;21)


    The nations in eternity will walk in the spiritual and moral light of the central capital New Jerusalem - a collective of the mingling of God and man.

    " And the nations will walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. And its gates will by no means be shut by day, for there is no night there.

    And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. And anything common and he who makes an abomination
    [an idol] and a lie shall by no means enter into it, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life." ( rev. 22:24-27)


    All the sons of God are fully conformed to the image of their Elder Brother Jesus Christ.

    " Because those whom He foreknew He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)


    Again, God makes all things new without any trace of the curse caused by Satan and fallen man.

    "And He who sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And He said, Write for these words are faithful and true." (Rev. 21:5)


    " He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me." (v.7)
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