1. Standard memberknightmeister
    knightmeister
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    03 Mar '12 17:19
    CS LEWIS

    "It is no good asking for a simple religion. After all, real things are
    not simple. They look simple, but they are not. The table I am sitting at
    looks simple: but ask a scientist to tell you what it is really made of-all
    about the atoms and how the light waves rebound from them and hit my eye and
    what they do to the optic nerve and what it does to my brain-and, of course,
    you find that what we call "seeing a table" lands you in mysteries and
    complications which you can hardly get to the end of. A child saying a
    child's prayer looks simple. And if you are content to stop there, well and
    good. But if you are not-and the modern world usually is not-if you want to
    go on and ask what is really happening- then you must be prepared for
    something difficult. If we ask for something more than simplicity, it is
    silly then to complain that the something more is not simple.
    Very often, however, this silly procedure is adopted by people who are
    not silly, but who, consciously or unconsciously, want to destroy
    Christianity. Such people put up a version of Christianity suitable for a
    child of six and make that the object of their attack. When you try to
    explain the Christian doctrine as it is really held by an instructed adult,
    they then complain that you are making their heads turn round and that it is
    all too complicated and that if there really were a God they are sure He
    would have made "religion" simple, because simplicity is so beautiful, etc.
    You must be on your guard against these people for they will change their
    ground every minute and only waste your time. Notice, too, their idea of God
    "making religion simple": as if "religion" were something God invented, and
    not His statement to us of certain quite unalterable facts about His own
    nature."
  2. Standard memberAgerg
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    03 Mar '12 17:563 edits
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    CS LEWIS

    "It is no good asking for a simple religion. After all, real things are
    not simple. They look simple, but they are not. The table I am sitting at
    looks simple: but ask a scientist to tell you what it is really made of-all
    about the atoms and how the light waves rebound from them and hit my eye and
    what they do to the optic nerve a ot His statement to us of certain quite unalterable facts about His own
    nature."
    and exactly which strawman is CS Lewis beating the living chit out of here!?? I'm certainly not such an atheist, nor (barring perhaps one exception) do i know of any other atheists who fit the same mould.

    Indeed it is theists like yourself that present a simplistic model of an entity which by rights (should it/they exist) should be well beyond our capacity to percieve, analyse, and describe. Don't present us your childish fantasies and then deign to tell us that the problem is all within our own shortsightedness.
  3. Joined
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    03 Mar '12 17:58
    The problem here is that CS Lewis is doing to atheists exactly what he is accusing atheists of doing to him.

    Attacking a straw man of their position.

    Now I have said before that Christian (and theistic morality in general) morality is over simplified and that
    moral problems are rarely as simple and black and white and religions often make them out to be.

    But that is not my problem with the belief in the existence of a god or gods.

    My problem is that it is not true. Gods don't exist. There are no such things as souls, and no afterlife of
    any kind.

    I don't care how simple or complex your religion is.
    I care how true it is.

    I can't speak for all atheists but every atheist I can think of or know objects to religion because it is making
    claims that are not backed up with any evidence and are contradicted by what evidence there is.

    The objection is to believing things based on faith, and not reason and evidence.


    Now there are all sorts of problems with some of the things people do believe based on their blind faith,
    and I and other atheists do often complain about and criticise such beliefs.
    But the central issue is with the method of choosing what to believe that leads to those faulty beliefs.

    When I criticise the god of the bible and the biblical teachings of Christianity for being medieval and barbaric,
    I do so fully aware that many if not most Christians don't believe half of what it says in the bible (often because
    they have never actually read it properly). Most theists are much better people than their religions would seem to
    indicate. Which is great, I am all in favour of that.

    But this doesn't mean I can't still point out that what you claim as the basis for your faith and belief is both wrong
    and evil and that the methodology you use for choosing what to, and what not to, believe is both bad and dangerous.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    03 Mar '12 18:02
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    CS LEWIS

    "It is no good asking for a simple religion. After all, real things are
    not simple. They look simple, but they are not. The table I am sitting at
    looks simple: but ask a scientist to tell you what it is really made of-all
    about the atoms and how the light waves rebound from them and hit my eye and
    what they do to the optic nerve a ...[text shortened]... ot His statement to us of certain quite unalterable facts about His own
    nature."
    He could have been talking about the Jehovah's Witnesses for they are
    always claiming that the Holy Bible, especially the Trinity of God, should
    be simple to understand. Therefore, the Trinity can not be true because
    it is not simple to understand.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    03 Mar '12 18:06
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    The problem here is that CS Lewis is doing to atheists exactly what he is accusing atheists of doing to him.

    Attacking a straw man of their position.

    Now I have said before that Christian (and theistic morality in general) morality is over simplified and that
    moral problems are rarely as simple and black and white and religions often make them ou ...[text shortened]... hodology you use for choosing what to, and what not to, believe is both bad and dangerous.
    The complexity of nature testifies to the complexity of the Creator. 😏
  6. Account suspended
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    03 Mar '12 18:18
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    CS LEWIS

    "It is no good asking for a simple religion. After all, real things are
    not simple. They look simple, but they are not. The table I am sitting at
    looks simple: but ask a scientist to tell you what it is really made of-all
    about the atoms and how the light waves rebound from them and hit my eye and
    what they do to the optic nerve a ...[text shortened]... ot His statement to us of certain quite unalterable facts about His own
    nature."
    beautiful!
  7. Account suspended
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    03 Mar '12 18:21
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    He could have been talking about the Jehovah's Witnesses for they are
    always claiming that the Holy Bible, especially the Trinity of God, should
    be simple to understand. Therefore, the Trinity can not be true because
    it is not simple to understand.
    no its not that, its simply that its neo plantonic metaphysics , everyone knows that, you
    know it, I know , even Viod Spirit and Black beetle who are atheists know it. Other
    Christians like divesgeester also know it, its only zoobs like you and jaywill that keep
    perpetuating the lie, Jaywill out of sincerity, you out of obstinacy.
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    03 Mar '12 18:26
    Originally posted by Agerg
    and exactly which strawman is CS Lewis beating the living chit out of here!?? I'm certainly not such an atheist, nor (barring perhaps one exception) do i know of any other atheists who fit the same mould.

    Indeed it is theists like yourself that present a simplistic model of an entity which by rights (should it/they exist) should be well beyond our capacity ...[text shortened]... h fantasies and then deign to tell us that the problem is all within our own shortsightedness.
    you cannot even get past the exist/not exist stage, if it cannot be proven either way,
    which it cannot, then you really are suffering from spiritual myopia because religious
    teaching exists, irrespective of the existence or non existence of God.
  9. Standard memberAgerg
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    03 Mar '12 18:342 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    you cannot even get past the exist/not exist stage, if it cannot be proven either way,
    which it cannot, then you really are suffering from spiritual myopia because religious
    teaching exists, irrespective of the existence or non existence of God.
    religious teachings exist is to some specific deity existing what mathematics teaching exists is to the Riemann Hypothesis being true.

    I.e. completely bloody irrelevant!
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    03 Mar '12 19:48
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    no its not that, its simply that its neo plantonic metaphysics , everyone knows that, you
    know it, I know , even Viod Spirit and Black beetle who are atheists know it. Other
    Christians like divesgeester also know it, its only zoobs like you and jaywill that keep
    perpetuating the lie, Jaywill out of sincerity, you out of obstinacy.
    I sincerely belief it, too.
  11. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    03 Mar '12 19:53
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I sincerely belief it, too.
    You are sincerely seriously deluded, just like the other 5 billion theists of various ilk. Yes Virginia, 8 billion people can be wrong about gods or god.
  12. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    03 Mar '12 20:03
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I sincerely belief it, too.
    Do you sincerely know the difference between 'belief' and 'believe'?
  13. Cape Town
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    03 Mar '12 20:48
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    You must be on your guard against these people for they will change their
    ground every minute and only waste your time.
    I find it interesting that this sort of warning (from one person to another of the same views) is common amongst theists but not atheists. I never hear atheists telling each other 'be on your guard against this argument or that argument, or this type of Christian'. We do listen to each others ideas, but most of the time we figure out counter arguments for our selves, and we are not afraid of any argument a theist might present.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    03 Mar '12 21:53
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    You are sincerely seriously deluded, just like the other 5 billion theists of various ilk. Yes Virginia, 8 billion people can be wrong about gods or god.
    But I am not referring to gods or god, but to the only true God.
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    03 Mar '12 21:54
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Do you sincerely know the difference between 'belief' and 'believe'?
    Only the true and the false. 😏
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