@philokalia saidI don't think you mentioning dead people's opinions substantiates your assertion that eternal torture is morally coherent. You need to take personal responsibility, as a moral agent, for the assertions you make about moral issues. An appeal to the "authority of Orthodox Saints" does not suffice.
FMF thinks he's scoring points when he questions the authority of Orthodox Saints on Christian theology and metaphysics 🙄
@philokalia saidI have laid this out repeatedly in multiple posts on more one thread, including this one, and currently active ones, over the last 2-3 weeks, explicitly. You are trying to dj2becker me.
Would you elaborate on hwo my ideas of free will do not "ring psychologically true?" I can't attack your assertion if... you don't present any reasons for your assertion.
@philokalia saidNor does it mean your beliefs about torture morally coherent.
Obviously, referencing Orthodox Saints hold no persuasive power over making an atheist believe in Christ.
@philokalia saidWhen I die, it will be the end of me. No one is going to torture me. I am not going to torture myself.
You would have to assert that hell constitutes torture imposed from without.
@philokalia saidIf you don't believe being kept conscious after death while you are burned in flames is torture then just come out and say so. If what you are saying is IT IS NOT TORTURE BECAUSE I DISPUTE THAT IT'S TORTURE, say so and be done with it.
Again, with the 'torture,' which is completely disputed, and you have not bothered to reason out for us.
@fmf saidFMF: Let me respond to a post concerning 'gut feeling' and the mind with something completely & entirely different.
Let me respond to this with this question: explain how it is morally justified to torture people in burning flames for eternity if the "gut feeling", which is the very nature and basis of faith in the face of a lack of objective proof, does not take hold of their subjective beliefs in the supernatural?
You are not even confronting the initial statement here but just trying to change the topic.
Very odd way to debate, FMF.
@fmf saidNotice that FMF makes this about deriding the fact that I am citing Orthodox sources to describe the concept of hell, as opposed to attacking the concept of hell as still being control., so he can continue to discuss it in terms of 'torture.'
I don't think you mentioning dead people's opinions substantiates your assertion that eternal torture is morally coherent. You need to take personal responsibility, as a moral agent, for the assertions you make about moral issues. An appeal to the "authority of Orthodox Saints" does not suffice.
He always fails to overcome meaningful distinctions in the argument and avoids any head on clash.
We can only conclude it is because he is exhausted and cannot present any further argumentation.
@fmf saidI don't know what you mean by that.
I have laid this out repeatedly in multiple posts on more one thread, including this one, and currently active ones, over the last 2-3 weeks, explicitly. You are trying to dj2becker me.
@fmf saidDoes a man who has, in total disregard for his own health, smoked cigarettes and drank alcohol relentlessly for 3 decades kill himself via his own actions when he begins dying from complications related to both of these conditions...?
When I die, it will be the end of me. No one is going to torture me. I am not going to torture myself.
Or is someone else killing him when this happens...?
@philokalia saidYou are mistaken.
You are not even confronting the initial statement here but just trying to change the topic.
@philokalia said"You are trying to dj2becker me" means exactly what anyone, including you, surely, would think it meant after I explained the reference to dj2becker on page 5. Are you not reading all my posts?
I don't know what you mean by that.
@philokalia said[1] We all die.
Does a man who has, in total disregard for his own health, smoked cigarettes and drank alcohol relentlessly for 3 decades kill himself via his own actions when he begins dying from complications related to both of these conditions...?
[2] Something or other kills us in the end.
[3] The guy in your analogy may well have hastened his own death.
[4] I will die one day, for different reasons from him. You too.
If you think death is analogous to being tortured in burning flames for eternity [in your story about a drinker and smoker who died], then that is a very feeble analogy.
@fmf said
"You are trying to dj2becker me" means exactly what anyone, including you, surely, would think it meant after I explained the reference to dj2becker on page 5. Are you not reading all my posts?
You remind me of dj2becker who, despite talking to almost no one else here, would constantly insist that he could not remember anything we had talked about.
Oh, Dj2becker is guilty of the cardinal sin of wanting to debate the relevant topics in the thread -- shouldn't he have known that FMF posted about it THREE YEARS AGO..?
Why are you here if you do not want to present arguments, FMF?
@fmf saidAre we responsible for the things that we do, FMF?
[1] We all die.
[2] Something or other kills us in the end.
[3] The guy in your analogy may well have hastened his own death.
[4] I will die one day, for different reasons from him. You too.
If you think death is analogous to being tortured in burning flames for eternity [in your story about a drinker and smoker who died], then that is a very feeble analogy.