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05 Feb 18
Since the case being made by ToO is that Paul the Apostle mesed it all up with another Gospel, we see concisely in one verse that this is totally false.
Enter Paul's faithfulness to the Gospel of Jesus.
" For we being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more we will be saved in His life having been reconciled." (Romans 5:18)
TWO STEPS:
1.) Reconciled to God from being His enemies by Christ's death.
2.) "Much more" saved in the realm of His life, ie. living in the realm of His available presence to be our inward spiritual life.
Of course there is no "verses" between Jesus's Gospel and that faithfully lived and proclaimed by Paul.
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The mythology of ThinkofOne is that Paul changed the Gospel Jesus taught. His real problem is not with Paul's gospel preaching but with Christ's.
Of course it appears better to say - "Jesus we like and accept. Paul messed it all up."
Consider a bit more:
This gospel consisted of repentance from sin, doing the commandments, and seeking first the kingdom (Matt 5:19, 6:33). Although these ideas are commonly recognized as good and Biblical ideas, none of them include faith in the redemptive work of Christ on the cross.
It is true that forgiveness is not an end in itself.
It is true that forgiveness is only a step in a procedure for God to carry out His establishing of a kingdom of God.
So Paul said "much more" - there is something "much more" then just reconciliation through Christ's death.
There is the sphere and realm of His saving life.
"For if we, being enemies, were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,
MUCH MORE we will be saved in His life, having been reconciled." (Rom. 5:10 my emphasis)
Sure, Christians need much more of the "much more".
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05 Feb 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterBump for Jacob Verville
You recently dug a bit of a pit for yourself in the debates forum whereby you were called out for seemingly holding racist views, I tackled you on this myself. You subsequently decided and announced (at least to me) that you were not going to return to that thread and defend you position. Is that the type of courageousness, virtue and liberation you are referring to?
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In short, ThinkofOne, Get off Paul's back please.
Paul was faithful.
I dare you to point out what is in Matthew that I CANNOT find in the epistles of Paul.
I'm out on a limb now, so try your complaint out.
Maybe, you'll find something. But I doubt it.
ThinkofOne, what do you see in the high demand of Matthew anywhere, that we could not correspondingly find in the epistles of Paul.
Go for it.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterOne post to say - "in short".
Do you really need 6 posts in a row to make your point?
😞
More that one post to give the more developed points.
Don't have a diaper rash about it.
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05 Feb 18
2 edits
In the OP
This gospel consisted of repentance from sin, doing the commandments, and seeking first the kingdom (Matt 5:19, 6:33).
Let's compare with Paul's words.
Jesus in Matthew 5:19
"Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens."
Remember now, ToO's complaint is that Paul was not faithful to teach what Jesus taught.
Paul in Galatians 5:19-21
" And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as fornication, uncleaness, lasciviousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, divisions, sects, envyings, bouts of drunkeness, carousings, and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practices such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."
Sounds to me that Paul is not watering down Matthew 5:19 at all !
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Paul is portrayed as perverting the Gospel of Jesus.
Another sample verse.
Jesus in Matthew 6:33
"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."
Remember now, the Apostle Paul is not suppose to know ANYTHING about this in his perverted version of the Gospel.
Paul in Romans 14:17:
"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."
Notice, it is not "the kingdom of God WILL NOT BE" but rather he speaks of the PRESENT normal church life. The kingdom of God ... "IS".
Sounds like living in the kingdom of God is living a righteous life in peace and joy of the Holy Spirit - TODAY.
There is in Paul's teaching, the kingdom of God today, and of course more of the kingdom of God to come in the future.
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The Gospel of Jesus "VS" the Gospel of Paul ??
These sample verses were given by ToO's informer:
Jesus in Matthew 5:19
"Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens."
Paul soft peddled all this. Right ? No he didn't:
Paul in First Cor. 6:9-11
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be led astray; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor effeminate nor homosexuals not thieves nor the covetous, not drunkards, not revilers, not the rapacious will inherit the kingdom of God.
And these things were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
The soberness of the warning in Matthew 5:19 is certainly echoed in Paul's words in 1 Cor. 6:9-11.
Originally posted by @sonshipJaywill, chances are that my response to this got lost in the ridiculous amount of completely off-topic flotsam being generated on this thread, so I'm reposting it for you. Your post can be found here: https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/the-gospel-of-jesus-vs-the-gospel-of-paul.175773/page-18#post_3835255
The new covenant prophesied to come by [b]Jeremiah consisted of four parts. One of those parts was that God would no longer remember their sins by any means. That is justification. That is redemption.
That that is not the ONLY section of the new covenant predicted by Jeremiah is evident. And no section should be neglected.
Here we see the four se ...[text shortened]... ant? Yes, often. Of course both Christ and His apostle Paul stressed the OTHER aspects as well.[/b]
Note that there is no mention of a "redemptive work on the cross for salvation", an "atoning sacrifice" or anything like it. If you understood the later OT prophets, you might understand the reason the people will be forgiven and their sins remembered no more. It isn't because of a "redemptive work on the cross for salvation", an "atoning sacrifice" or anything like it. If you understood the later OT prophets, you might also understand the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.
You also don't understand what's being said in what you split up into 1, 2, 3. A large part of the reason that you don't understand it is likely because you DID split it up. You have a real habit of splitting up both scripture and what people write on this forum. In the process you lose sight of the bigger picture. This methodology begets a failure to understand the written word.
This is what you do jaywill, you come up with half-baked theories of what you think is being said in scripture, when the reality is that you don't understand what's actually being said. It's a real problem.
If you remain true to form, you won't understand what I've written here either.
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05 Feb 18
1 edit
Originally posted by @thinkofone
It may be supposed that although Jesus talked a lot about the kingdom, that he still taught faith in his death on the cross for justification unto life. However, again, the Scriptures show us otherwise...
Jesus taught that He came to give His life as a ransom. It is worth repeating.
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serv and to give His life as a ransom for many." (Mark 10:45)
His righteous living plus the jealously stirred up by that living and teaching God sovereignly used to bring about His having to give up His life.
Had He not LIVED so righteously and had He not TAUGHT the crowds so righteously, He would not have been opposed and executed.
Under God's providence which transcends the time element, this death was His opportunity to INTERCEDE for the justification of the believers.
Remember that the prayers of the Son of God are not light matters. They are eternally weighty and of everlasting significance. His prayers are mighty and extend in their answers into eternity.
He interceded in His death for us.
"And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and one on the left.
And Jesus said, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing. (See Luke 23:33,34a)
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05 Feb 18
Yes indeed, the Son of God taught living righteously unto God for the kingdom of God. No argument from me about that. But fulfilling the prophecy He poured out His life and made intercession for the sinners, to redeem them, dying in our place.
The prophet Isaiah wrote:
" But Jehovah was pleased to crush Him, to afflict Him with grief When He makes Himself an offering for sin, (Isa, 53:10a)
" He poured out His life unto death and was numbered with the transgressors, Yet He alone bore the sin of many and interceded for the transgressors." (v.12b)
His righteous living and teaching got Him killed.
But in addition God poured out His judgment upon Him for the sin of the world at the same time.
In real time, then the Son of God interceded for the world for their forgiveness. His death on their behalf was accepted by God for the justification of those who believe in Him.
"He was crushed because of our iniquities; the chastening for our peace was upon Him. And by His stripes we have been healed.
... And Jehovah has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him." (See Isa. 53:5,6)
Jesus came to a specific people, to preach a specific message, and to die a specific death. What can not be found in his exclusive ministry is salvation from the preaching of the cross...
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Originally posted by @thinkofoneNote that there is no mention of a "redemptive work on the cross for salvation"
Jaywill, chances are that my response to this got lost in the ridiculous amount of completely off-topic flotsam being generated on this thread, so I'm reposting it for you. Your post can be found here: https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spirituality/the-gospel-of-jesus-vs-the-gospel-of-paul.175773/page-18#post_3835255
Note that there is no mentio ...[text shortened]... eal problem.
If you remain true to form, you won't understand what I've written here either.
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You are requiring that the exact same words be found in the Gospel account ? It is not necessary.
"the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world" has to point to the expiatory sacrifice of the animal offering in the Old Testament.
I anticipate an argument:
"But John the Baptist said that and not Jesus." (perhaps that is your pushback)
Who do you think knew more about why Jesus came - ThinkofOne or John the Baptist?
Jesus predicted His death AND His resurrection.
The nature of His death was as a RANSOM to buy man out from under the guilt of the law of God. That is redemption.
That is also the slain Lamb of God to take away sin.
Everything you are teaching is just an elaborate belief in your own self righteousness to justify yourself without Christ.
Cont. below.
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, an "atoning sacrifice" or anything like it.
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It is superfiscial to always insist that the exact same expressions must only be used to mean the same matter.
I did refer to Jeremiah's "new covenant" and to Jesus usage of the same phrase.
And in His usage of it, definitely, His broken body and His shed blood establish the "new covenant" foundation.