1. Standard memberknightmeister
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    07 Apr '12 11:36
    God's grace and love has always been offensive to our sensibilities and sense of justice. This is the way it should be.

    Try this imaginary thought experiment -

    Imagine you are in church and Hitler walks in. He's terminally ill and in his last days (I said it was imaginary!). He walks up to the front throws himself upon the Lord in prayer begging for mercy from the heart of God. There's a real sense as he weeps uncontrollably that he is totally genuine and repentant. He receives the gift of salvation through faith in the sacrifice of Christ for him. He believes in the atoning blood of Jesus and the Holy Spirit moves in such a way in the church that you simply just know he has been saved.


    Now , what is your reaction...?

    a) Are you angry and indignant that God seems to have overlooked his crimes against humanity? Do you begin to wonder what God is playing at by allowing Hitler to get to heaven when you have done all these good works and he has done so many bad things. Are you offended?

    b) Do you rejoice and praise God that his mercy and love is so great that even this man can be saved. Are you joyful that a precious human soul has been redeemed? Does your heart leap at how powerful the redeeming work of Christ's death is? That God himself became a depraved and despised human on the cross to take the place of all men , even Hitler?

    Now , if you are offended and indignant then self righteous pride is ruling in your heart. Hard though it may be , the grace and mercy of God is offensive to us. His love and mercy is always far far greater than our human perceptions. If your reactions are a) then you have not understood the love of God. You may understand "works" but there is one great redeeming work of God that you have not understood.
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    07 Apr '12 12:19
    b] its not for me to question..
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    07 Apr '12 12:26
    easy 'a' all the way for me, but all that stuff about self righteous pride is nonsense. there is nothing self righteous about questioning dubious morality.
  4. Cape Town
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    07 Apr '12 12:38
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    b) Do you rejoice and praise God that his mercy and love is so great that even this man can be saved. Are you joyful that a precious human soul has been redeemed? Does your heart leap at how powerful the redeeming work of Christ's death is? That God himself became a depraved and despised human on the cross to take the place of all men , even Hitler?
    If I agree with God on this one (which I would - when it comes to love), then why would I think him worthy of praise? Instead, if I actually believed he exists, then I would expect it of him. More importantly though, I wouldn't expect any requirement for ' the redeeming work of Christ's death'. The whole concept implies God cannot truly love without some twisted sense of justice (he has to pinch himself before letting some one off), and an desperate need for praise / belief, or whatever the 'faith' requirement is really all about.
    More importantly though, a truly loving God would not have allowed Hitler to get where he did in the first place.
  5. Standard memberknightmeister
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    07 Apr '12 14:23
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    If I agree with God on this one (which I would - when it comes to love), then why would I think him worthy of praise? Instead, if I actually believed he exists, then I would expect it of him. More importantly though, I wouldn't expect any requirement for ' the redeeming work of Christ's death'. The whole concept implies God cannot truly love without some ...[text shortened]... , a truly loving God would not have allowed Hitler to get where he did in the first place.
    Of course a truly loving God would have made us all robots so that none of us could ever go astray?

    The cross does not mean that God cannot love without a "twisted sense of justice" - it is an expression of His love and His efforts to reconcile our sinfulness with His holiness.

    As for expecting God to love us , why does that expectation mean that He is unworthy of praise? The whole point is that we learn to feel gratitude for something which we take for granted. He is worthy of praise simply for who He is. Just because we expect that a sunset on a certain day is going to look beautiful doesn't mean that we should not celebrate and enjoy it's beauty when it comes.
  6. Standard memberknightmeister
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    07 Apr '12 14:25
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    easy 'a' all the way for me, but all that stuff about self righteous pride is nonsense. there is nothing self righteous about questioning dubious morality.
    The dubious bit is thinking that somehow you deserve to be let off and Hitler doesn't. In God's eyes we are ALL fallen and whatever righteousness we think we have pales in the presence of His holiness.
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    07 Apr '12 15:12
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    God's grace and love has always been offensive to our sensibilities and sense of justice. This is the way it should be.

    Try this imaginary thought experiment -

    Imagine you are in church and Hitler walks in. He's terminally ill and in his last days (I said it was imaginary!). He walks up to the front throws himself upon the Lord in prayer b ...[text shortened]... erstand "works" but there is one great redeeming work of God that you have not understood.
    I'd leave his relationship with God to him and God, but if there was a police force available that would arrest him, I'd citizen's arrest the sorry specimen and call them in -- for he may fall away from grace.
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    07 Apr '12 15:461 edit
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    The dubious bit is thinking that somehow you deserve to be let off and Hitler doesn't. In God's eyes we are ALL fallen and whatever righteousness we think we have pales in the presence of His holiness.
    if that was the case then i would think that god was an idiot. all these emotions we are saying god thinks and feels are the same emotions we are capable of feeling. the premise that heis better than us seems to be based on the fact that his emotions are amplified - he feels more love, more righteousness. the power of his feeling do not make them more correct.
    if god can forgive anything that quickly then it places no value on the deeds we do in life, whats the point in dedicating your life to god if you can just repent at the end.
    god shouldnt decide his fate anyway. hilter should be put up infront of a court of all the people who died because of him and their family members. he should be aloud to say his bit and ask for forgiveness. if they grant him it then i would accept their decision. god should then sit trial in front of the whole of humanity and we should then decide his fate for giving his silent consent to hitlers actions.
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    07 Apr '12 16:16
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    Of course a truly loving God would have made us all robots so that none of us could ever go astray?
    If thats what it takes, yes. But I am not convinced that that is what it takes. Are you?

    The cross does not mean that God cannot love without a "twisted sense of justice" - it is an expression of His love and His efforts to reconcile our sinfulness with His holiness.
    As I said, a 'twisted sense of justice'. If you love someone, you may forgive them. You don't need to reconcile their sinfulness with your holiness by some weird self sacrifice ritual.

    As for expecting God to love us , why does that expectation mean that He is unworthy of praise?
    I guess it has to do with who or what God is. I really don't see the point in giving praise to the creator of the universe. It make no sense to me. I do not praise the earth, I do not praise the sun. They are are what they are and they give me life, but I see no sense in praising them.

    The whole point is that we learn to feel gratitude for something which we take for granted.
    What 'whole point'? Yours? Gods? What does this 'point' have to do with the initial post? You implied in the OP that we should praise God because he is loving, not because of some 'point' that needs to be made.

    He is worthy of praise simply for who He is. Just because we expect that a sunset on a certain day is going to look beautiful doesn't mean that we should not celebrate and enjoy it's beauty when it comes.
    Sure we celebrate and enjoy a sunset. But do your praise it?
  10. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    07 Apr '12 17:39
    Originally posted by knightmeister
    God's grace and love has always been offensive to our sensibilities and sense of justice. This is the way it should be.

    Try this imaginary thought experiment -

    Imagine you are in church and Hitler walks in. He's terminally ill and in his last days (I said it was imaginary!). He walks up to the front throws himself upon the Lord in prayer b ...[text shortened]... erstand "works" but there is one great redeeming work of God that you have not understood.
    By all means, let's rehabilitate people instead of punishing them forever. No one deserves that, not even Hitler. I wouldn't be mad that God let Hitler into heaven. I'd be mad that he casts aside so many others.

    Think about Hitler's victims. Most were Jews. Many Jews follow the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion holds that Jesus was NOT a deity of any kind, and was NOT the Messiah. They don't believe in the resurrection of Christ and his blood atonement for their sins. Doesn't this mean they went to hell after Hitler killed them?

    This is why the grace and mercy of God, as you describe it, is definitely offensive to our own moral sensibilities. It's Bizarro-Justice at its finest. I think it's one of the best arguments against the existence of this God.
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    07 Apr '12 17:563 edits
    Edit: The following is meant for all and not just as a response to the OP.

    What might the scenario given in the OP look like if it were consistent with the teachings of Jesus when He walked the Earth, rather than being consistent with the teachings of Paul and others as in the OP?

    Jesus saw Himself as being "one with God". Jesus spoke often and at length about the meaning of justice, compassion, love, truth, etc. In short, about what it means to be "righteous".

    Jesus wanted His followers to become one with God and Himself. Jesus knew the way and wanted to teach His followers what it entails, how to get there, etc. Toward that end, Jesus exhorted his followers to follow His word, follow His commandments, etc. In short, to become "righteous".

    Seems reasonable to view an individual who is "righteous", who is "one with God", and all that entails, as living in the "Kingdom of God".

    In this scenario, toward the very end of his life Hitler has seen the error of his ways, the error of his views, etc. Not only that, Hitler has had a complete change of heart and mind. He has truly "repented". He has become "one with God". He has become "righteous". He has become the embodiment of justice, compassion, love, truth, etc.

    Now , what is your reaction...?

    a) Are you angry and indignant that Hitler is living in the "Kingdom of God"?

    b) Do you see it as a postive thing that Hitler is living in the "Kingdom of God"?
  12. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    07 Apr '12 18:04
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    Edit: The following is meant for all and not just as a response to the OP.

    What might the scenario given in the OP look like if it were consistent with the teachings of Jesus as He walked the Earth, rather than being consistent with the teachings of Paul and others as in the OP?

    Jesus saw Himself as being "one with God". Jesus spoke often and at len ...[text shortened]... u see it as a postive thing that Hitler is living in the "Kingdom of God"?
    He can be in the "Kingdom of God" all he likes - behind bars. I'm fine with that. 😀
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    07 Apr '12 18:052 edits
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    By all means, let's rehabilitate people instead of punishing them forever. No one deserves that, not even Hitler. I wouldn't be mad that God let Hitler into heaven. I'd be mad that he casts aside so many others.

    Think about Hitler's victims. Most were Jews. Many Jews follow the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion holds that Jesus was NOT a deity of a at its finest. I think it's one of the best arguments against the existence of this God.
    By all means, let's rehabilitate people instead of punishing them forever. No one deserves that, not even Hitler. I wouldn't be mad that God let Hitler into heaven. I'd be mad that he casts aside so many others.


    Instead of rehabilitation I would prefer a more biblical word here like, transformation, sanctification, or conformation to the image of the Son of God.

    Now why would you assume that ANY sinner being saved would NOT have to pass through such a process ?

    The assumption that Hitler or anyone else can be forgiven and remain the same kind of person is simply a faulty idea.


    Think about Hitler's victims. Most were Jews. Many Jews follow the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion holds that Jesus was NOT a deity of any kind, and was NOT the Messiah. They don't believe in the resurrection of Christ and his blood atonement for their sins. Doesn't this mean they went to hell after Hitler killed them?


    Maybe they perished. But maybe will be in for some surprises. One can ask the question - "But what did they reject, the Gospel or a caricature and a deformed thing ?"

    I think there could be a question mark there about some of those Jews. I often consider the word in Deuteronomy 29:29:

    "The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deut. 29:29)

    To me this means:

    1.) In the universe and in all time there are some matters that are hidden to man. These matters belong to God.

    2.) Aside from these there are the things revealed to man. And those things God expects us to respond to with a sense of responsibility.

    So I leave room for some unknowns in the whole plan of God. What is revealed is that I should believe the Gospel and preach it to the world.

    I also notice that the age of eternity does not commence immediatly after the second coming of Christ. There is an intervening period of at least 1,000 years for God to still do some things. And after that 1,000 years there is still "a little while" (Rev. 20:3) after that.

    I don't know how long "a little while" is. So we better obey the matters that are revealed to us. Yet we hold that some hidden things belong to God, at least at this time they do.


    This is why the grace and mercy of God, as you describe it, is definitely offensive to our own moral sensibilities. It's Bizarro-Justice at its finest. I think it's one of the best arguments against the existence of this God.


    I have argued above that - "The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deut. 29:29)


    On the evangelist's side, he should not labor much to prove the "system" of God's eternal purpose he completely knows.

    On the unbeliever's side he should heed to the things which are revealed and respond toward God responsibly about those things.

    In the mean time the Bible affirms that righteousness is the foundation of God's throne and that all His judgments are righteous.
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    07 Apr '12 18:11
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    He can be in the "Kingdom of God" all he likes - behind bars. I'm fine with that. 😀
    One would think that if Hitler were "righteous", he would humbly comply.
  15. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    07 Apr '12 20:08
    Originally posted by jaywill
    By all means, let's rehabilitate people instead of punishing them forever. No one deserves that, not even Hitler. I wouldn't be mad that God let Hitler into heaven. I'd be mad that he casts aside so many others.


    Instead of rehabilitation I would prefer a more biblical word here like, transformation, sanctification, or conformation to the ...[text shortened]... he foundation of God's throne and that all His judgments are righteous.
    I did not assume that rehabilitation is not part of the salvation process.

    Perhaps you are a bit more reasonable than KM in leaving the judgment up to God.

    But I bet you believe that some people are sent to eternal hell, correct?
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